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fred d
Akahai
USA
60 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2011 : 07:26:31 AM
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 And this my friends is why the Hawiian way of music is DIEING. Very little steel just guitar it's to bad but you can't fix stupity |
fred davis |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2011 : 6:36:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Basil Henriques
Bill (and like-minded others) I'm with you all the way..I have lived in fruitless hope of being invited to perform at ANY of the Hawaiian Guitar Conventions, either stateside or even in Hawaii.. It will NEVER happen..
I've been accepted in many circles and chastised in a few. To say it has no effect on me would be a lie. I've backed off immensely in promoting one group as a result of the caste system of a few in the leadership and membership. It has not stopped me from playing and performing publicly, though. It has also not slowed down the requests for my musical services from many community groups and backyard parties. It has not stopped my friend Kay Das from performing hawaiian steel guitar, either. There are many places in Hawaii I have an open invitation to perform. There are also many places in Hawaii where that would be considered sacreligous. If I choose to leave this community, it will be my decision alone. BTW, I have no plans to do that. Bill, if you choose to leave this community, God be with you. If you would consider my 2 cents worth though, stick around. You're among many kindred in spirit. Ric |
It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 05:55:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
You likened yourself to Andy as "born and raised" in Hawai'i. I know Andy pretty well. We have performed together, eaten together, taken long car trips together, and had great times jamming with each other in his home and mine. And it has always been my understanding that Andy was born and raised - like me - in New Jersey. So it led to me wonder how many others believe that Andy was raised in Hawai'i, and if they believed this, why? Is it because of the way he talks about Hawaiian music and culture? Is it because he looks "local?" Or is it because of his way with the slack key guitar? Like Andy, I have been told all my life that if I didn't tell people that I am not Hawaiian, they would never know. But they would. Because invariably somebody asks you how you learned to play, and you have to tell them you learned by listening to records. And then they ask if your father or grandfather played, and you have to say "no." And then they ask where you're from - or, in my case, what your mother's maiden name was because my surname is not Hawaiian - and you have to admit that neither your mother nor your father are Hawaiian. And then no matter how well you play or sing, some people will view you - hear you - differently. To some people, these things matter.
This is why people think that I was born and raised in Hawaiʻi! Misinformation from the traditional media. Ha ha. For the record, I was born in New York and grew up in New Jersey since age 1.
There are too many layers here, I think, to be simply dissected. The "us versus them" discussion in this thread brings many subjects to my mind:
- human prejudice
- being Hawaiian vs. another ethnicity
- being an islander vs. being a mainlander
- being a part of the local music scene vs. not
- emotions linked to winning/not winning the Grammy award
I have heard similar frustrations expressed by a non-Hawaiian musician in Hawaiʻi, even though he was born and raised there. This individual did not feel accepted by the local music community because he was not of Hawaiian decent. Interestingly, it was not until the day that he said, "I don't care what people think," remained dedicated to his music, that he ultimately felt accepted.
We are all human. We tend to say and do stupid things - yes, even our heroes. Perhaps, the reality is that it is impossible for people to truly "Live Aloha" 100% of the time. I wonder, though, if my passion were gangster rap, how much resistance would I meet as a fan, supporter, and performer? |
Andy |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 06:45:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
I wonder, though, if my passion were gangster rap, how much resistance would I meet as a fan, supporter, and performer?
Don't be so obtuse. You know that your passion is, in fact, gangsta rap. (Remember all of that talk about you and me forming a hip-hop group in which I would scratch on dual turntables using old Bell Records 78s and you would spit anti-haole rants to raise your cred on the mean streets of 'Iwilei? And we would get fat eating the three-egg-with-Portuguese-sausage breakfast at Sizzler's on Dillingham before launching a turf war with Flip McDiarmid using oversized Prince graphites at the Kailua Racquet Club?)
If you're going to be an outsider, be a real outsider. Hawai'i already thinks you're Hawaiian. If I were still playing Hawaiian music, I would continue to ride your coattails in this regard! And I have not yet found a way to bring the Hawaiian music and hip-hop worlds together. And I have not yet been chastized by the hip-hop community.
Dare to be... daring.
And now, seriously, thank you for consolidating the issues so poignantly and eloquently. Everybody keeps asking me, "What does this Grammy stuff have to do with you, Bill?" And the answer is nothing. But how the outsider is made to feel for wanting to participate in insider culture is relevant to me. And now, thanks to the candor of so many of us here, it would appear it is relevant to plenty of us.
Thank you, taropatch.net, for responding honestly and warmly to this issue.
~ Bill
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 07:02:59 AM
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| Ya know, IMHO, the Grammy's have mostly gone to "Middle of the Road" aka "MOR" artists and music biz people. They are awards for and by those in the business. Those of us performing in any category are usually disappointed in the results. The "tassle loafer boys" who run the business give a nod to more "dangerous" music by nominating the songs or artists who make them. Daniel Ho, being a producer, gets more attention from the business because he is a producer. As a major jazzoid, I am usually disappointed in what the Grammy folks call "jazz". This now goes for Hawaiian music, too. I have long learned to shrug off the Grammys as just another hype from the music business and be pleasantly surprised when a real artist gets an award. |
keaka |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2174 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 07:05:24 AM
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I play in a German/Austrian polka band. Folks speak German to me all the time. I tell them that I don't understand them in Swedish, then laugh. I've never been called out because of it (I think that one reason is the buttonbox is percieved to be difficult, but alternate guitar tunings present a similar challenge). I saw a YouTube bit about jodelling in Switzerland that showed participants from east Africa, Korea, Japan etc. Those folks were GOOD and the Swiss apparently thought so, too.
I get called to play with Hawaiians by Hawaiians here in Seattle (Slip does, too). It is a great feeling to be accepted by nice folks. Folks not so nice, no big loss, no matter their background. Flip Wilson used to say, "The ugly people know who they are." Life is too short to let the insecurities and fearful ignorance of others eclipse our joy in life on this ball of mud. If we were limited to our heritages, all of us would be the poorer. All humans "borrow" from their neighbors. Instruments, technology, food items, you name it. The only thing we have is our ability appreciate and appropriate. That is how we grow. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 08:09:12 AM
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Iʻm not making excuses but there are many festering wounds suffered by Hawaiian people. Others say it is time to move on and be American and so forth. For some its not that simple. The transition of the Islands from a sovereign nation to one that is now owned by the USA is a very sad and ugly story. This goes beyond just the music. Some people feel that the music is being usurped by others and awards are given to the wrong people. That is the opinion of a few not the many. Those who take offense by those peopleʻs statements might consider the source before taking a defensive stance. Perhaps if people attempted to gain a deeper understanding of the story of Hawaiʻi, a little more tolerance would be exercised. The same idea could be posited as regards the origin of the blues. Most of those songs were not happy songs and yet other people exploit the music for monetary gain all the time. Sometimes the effort is successful and other times not so much.
It should be understood that the music of the Hawaiian people is not much different from other genres. But, the emotional investment and the connection to a group of people who became strangers in their own land is great. I have to reiterate that the language was outlawed and young people were beaten in the school yards for speaking Hawaiian in the early 1900ʻs. The only method that was used to keep the language alive publicly was through the music and mele of Hawaiʻi in the Hawaiian language. So when some of us are insistent in stressing accuracy of pronunciation and phrasing it is for reasons of being pono and respectful of our native tongue.Also I must say again that not all musicians, myself included, are native speakers. Many musicians in the last 40 or more years have mispronounced many Hawaiian words in a song. Thus, so many other people ask " How do you say this word?" This question will always pop up from time to time. It is an honest question and should be asked. But should the answer come from one who knows very little about the language? I think not. It is not about polarization but more about purview. I personally have a BA in the language and you know what I still dont know as much as Iʻd like to about it but when I voice an educated opinion about it Iʻm sorry some people take offense but right is right and when I see or read something that is incorrect I just might say something about it.
There seems to be some controversy about whether one is raised in Hawaiʻi or not and whether that should be a qualifier for permission to play Hawaiian music.I will flatly state that the premise is ridiculous. One need not grow up in Hawaiʻi to do so and I will say that Tia went to Sacred Hearts Academy so I assume she grew up in Hawaiʻi. That does not make her proficient in the language. But like growing up anywhere I think that fact does give people certain insights regarding the place where they grew up. If one grew up in Hawaiʻi they would know if it is going to rain in the next ten minutes or not. They might be able to notice a cheek kissing misty rain versus a torrential house beating rain(this one is of course obvious but the Hawaiian names of these rains might be known too). One can see if the tide is going out or coming in. The difference between kai malino , kai māʻokiʻoki, or kai hawanawana would be ingrained in oneʻs knowledge. And when expressed in song the total emotional and mind pictures will be present in the singers heart and soul.
Regarding awards. IMHO awards are meaningless when taken out of context. Who won the best album award 2 years ago? For me the award is immediate. A lady comes up to me and says "I was taken home by your music and i cried and got homesick." "I only visited Hawaiʻi years ago and you reminded me of that visit." "Thanks for your beautiful music." These are true awards that make me feel good not some piece of metal that will collect dust on a shelf.
Any way I have said my say and that is my story and Iʻm sticking to it. Jus press. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 02/22/2011 08:14:23 AM |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 08:27:21 AM
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Someone I would like to mention in regard to this insider/outsider thing is Eric Clapton. As a white Brit trying to play U.S. southern black music he has always been somewhat of a outsider, and I have see him express this feeling a little even in fairly recent interviews. Yet, it does not seem to have changed his intent to master and play the blues, and he has even organized the "Crossroads Blues Festival" to celebrate this music form. I think he is quite accepted by many of the old blues masters (like BB King, etc.), but I would not be surprised that there are still a few that grumble that "that white Limey" has no business playing "their" music.
Some of it just boils down to "Non illegitimis carborundum", which is a true outsider's motto because it is not even real latin!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 02/22/2011 08:27:49 AM |
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Hookani
Lokahi
232 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 09:32:38 AM
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To me, the problem of this year's Grammy win is not about who it was or where they live or where they're from, it was more a problem of is this Hawaiian music. As a matter of fact, I don't really care where you're from or what's in your blood. As a dear friend always says just play from your heart and not from your butt. With Tia's CD all it contained was Hawaiian lyrics put to classical melodies. Is that really Hawaiian music? As someone mentioned, if Michael Jackson's songs were translated to Hawaiian, is it now Hawaiian music? If I did some break dancing to Hawaiian music, is that hula? Think about it, Hawaiian music is more than just language and more than just the instruments, it's a mix of the entire package and something that really can't be described in words but can be felt. And some probably think that Tia's CD will be misconstrued as being what traditional Hawaiian music is.
Also, is the love of Hawaiian music really there with this years Grammy winner or is it just an opportunity. All the other nominees have been a part of the traditional Hawaiian music scene a better part of their lives and long before the grammy category was created. Tia came on to the Hawaiian music scene after the category was created and did not even look to gain a local following (at least I didn't see it). Will she continue to be involved in Hawaiian music if the category goes away? We can only speculate on that.
Basically Bill, we know you have a passion for Hawaiian music and as long as that music comes from your heart you shouldn't feel like you shouldn't be playing it. And to me, I really don't understand why it's not appreciated that so called "outsiders" are interested in the culture and want to perpetuate it if it's done in a pono way. |
Ke Kani Nahe
YouTube
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 12:04:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hookani
With Tia's CD all it contained was Hawaiian lyrics put to classical melodies. Is that really Hawaiian music? As someone mentioned, if Michael Jackson's songs were translated to Hawaiian, is it now Hawaiian music? If I did some break dancing to Hawaiian music, is that hula? Think about it, Hawaiian music is more than just language and more than just the instruments, it's a mix of the entire package and something that really can't be described in words but can be felt.
Are hapa-haole songs "Hawaiian" music? They generally don't even have Hawaiian lyrics. Are some more "Hawaiian" than others? What about when those same songs are given Hawaiian translations (a la Amy & Willie K's "Nostalgia" album)?
Is a song like Kui Lee's beautiful "I'll Remember You" a Hawaiian song? The subject matter isn't specifically Hawaiian, nor is the instrumentation, nor the song's structure. But it's a standard piece of the repertoire of thousands of "Hawaiian" musicians.
Where does Keola Beamer's "Ka Hikina O Ka Hau" fall on the spectrum?
Or "Tiny Bubbles"?
Or "Coconut Girl"?
Or "Drop Baby Drop"? (Gotta love a song where the background singers croon the word "zombie"!)
In the famous words of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964), regarding possible obscenity in a film: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.”
Derek's definition leaves open a similar interpretation: "...something that really can't be described in words but can be felt." We know it when we hear it --- "it" being something different to every single listener, thus not a solid definition that can apply for everyone.
Is Tia's CD "Hawaiian"? We may define it to be so or not so for ourselves only, but we can not impose our personal definition on any other ears. |
Edited by - Retro on 02/22/2011 12:05:37 PM |
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kuulei88
Akahai
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 12:21:58 PM
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Retro writes:
Is Tia's CD "Hawaiian"? We may define it to be so or not so for ourselves only, but we can not impose our personal definition on any other ears.
This statement goes to the heart of Billʻs initial post. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but that does not license anyone to impose those opinions on anyone else. Yet in Hawaiian music, so many Hawaiians and non-Hawaiians who hold themselves to be more knowledgable than some, then take it on themselves to play pono police. How many good-hearted and well-intentioned potential fans and students and allies of Hawaiian music have turned away from Hawaiian music after getting one drubbing too many? Well, if they leave and we donʻt hear from them, weʻll never know how many have felt driven off or iced out, will we?
Bill has done this community a great service in speaking out on this issue. Because he has named the kind of "holier-than-thou" behavior that sends people away disenchanted, disillusioned, disempowered. Maybe at least this time some people might be thoughtful before posting some unintentional yet preventable hurt. |
amy k |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2174 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 4:14:53 PM
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Humans have always found themselves in the midst of adversity, whether from the climate, disease, untoward neighbors, etc. Migrations from one place to another have been caused by hardships (my Grandfather said that northern Sweden would only grow trees and rocks). The Barbarian Invasions of the age of the late Roman Empire were caused, in part, by disease and climate. Humans in governmental capacity have always been shown to be lacking in at least a few areas. Fair treatment has been savored by only a minority in history. Music, for one, has been a blessed relief for many. Jus' enjoy. Jus' press.
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Momi
Lokahi
402 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 5:05:11 PM
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The melody of one of the most beloved songs in the Hawaiian repertoire, "Hawai`i Aloha," was based on an old hymn, written by James McGranahan.
http://www.huapala.org/Hawaii/Hawaii_Aloha.html
In answer to Bill's earlier question, the chorus of "Aloha `Oe" sounded "remarkably close to the chorus of George Frederick Root's composition, 'There's Music In The Air,' published in 1854."
http://www.huapala.org/Aloha/Aloha_Oe.html
Every time I sing one of my favorite mele, "Pua Lilia," in kanikapila, Slipry1 swears that he learned the same melody (different lyrics, of course) via an old country song (the name of which escapes me - help me out, Keaka).
I'm not going to make any judgment calls about what is and isn't Hawaiian music, except to say that I consider the three songs above to be part of the canon. I will say, if anyone cares, that the reason I post so rarely any more (and almost never read threads) is I got so angry after reading a thread about the winner of the Hawaiian Grammy two years ago that I decided to remove myself from the source of the aggravation.
Carry on. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2174 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 7:59:33 PM
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| Jack always sings "Kentucky Waltz" during "Pua Lilia", almost the same chord structure. Shoots, get ony 12 notes. I'm happy for digital tuners. |
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Bau
Lokahi
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 10:26:19 PM
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Noeau makes a good point about peoples feeling on heratige and ancestry that is perhaps being overlooked. there are a lot of strong feelings there for many people of native Hawaiian decent. IMO the mana of playing music of your own ancestral heritage is something that can not be duplicated realy by anyone not of that ancestry. I think that does have to be respected by people not of that heritage. I can understand hurt feeling if someone feels their culture is misrepresented. I don't think that is a matter of whether you are born on the islands or not. It's about the legacy of your ancestors. But If you are not of that heritage and you respect that , it doesn't matter where you are from or what heritage you are, if you are still support awareness of that legacy of the people who were the precursors to what you are doing now. whether its Hawaiian music, blues , whatever.
On a side note @ Noeau,
i'd like your opinion on this article i found on the whole question of the language ban. Again it seems so much comes down to perceptions and that there are always to sides to every story...
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/hawaiiansovereignty/hawlangillegal.html
@ Andy and Bill
in the Kanikapila section, as a noob to the forum, i had asked if there was anyone else around NJ that played hawaiisn music, and you both responded kindly , Bill you offered to come play music and I offered hospitality, neither of you ever contacted me back to do so, or made any other contact whatso ever. I have to admit it, that made me feel a bit like an unwanted outsider. but I personaly am ok with that. Im a loner anyway. And i understand, who wants to play with a noob who can't keep up? Thats no fun for anyone, you guys are long time friends, already had your own thing going on, and I respect that, so I was not offended by the lask of response.
But you see about the 2 sides again.
The outsiders vs the outsidees.
who is who and which is which?
are we ourselves part of the solution?
part of the problem ?
or both.... |
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My Love Affair With Hawaiian Music Is Over
