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Ikaika
Aloha
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 02/16/2011 : 04:52:34 AM
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I thought I had said all I had to say, but like Kilauea, it keeps spouting more.
This is an interesting, thought-provoking topic, that sticks in my mind and won't stop. (Kinda like "It's a Small World" in Disneyland).
As far as the Tia vs. Other Artists stuff, I think I can equate it to people and their favorite professional sports teams/athletes. Some are rabid fans of their chosen team or athlete to the exclusion of everyone/thing else. Not healthy IMO. Sure, you might talk trash about the other team, but anyone with common sense is not going to wish ill will or disaster upon them. Karma is a mother.
Hell, look at what the Bieberistas did to Ezperansa Spaulding's website! Too much of anything is bad, no matter what it is.
So, Bill, really re-think your position re; Hawaiian Music. Perhaps it can still work for you, and you can still be happy doing what you love, within your principles and convictions.
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The easiest and hardest thing to do in life is Live Aloha.... |
Edited by - Ikaika on 02/16/2011 04:53:29 AM |
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Ikaika
Aloha
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2011 : 04:53:51 AM
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| "It's only a cold sore." - Previous Girlfriend |
The easiest and hardest thing to do in life is Live Aloha.... |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2011 : 05:30:53 AM
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Maybe this whole site is getting a bit polarized. I just got chastised on another thread for daring to use English to describe a Hawaiian sound--sheesh!
Allen |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2011 : 11:58:17 AM
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Performance/Event Announcements & Reviews
Upcoming performances / events or post about your experience after attending.
Recording Announcements & Reviews
Acquire a recent or old release? Tell us what you think! (CDs, tapes, LPs...)
Maybe we should eliminate these two sections from Taropatch.net.
It seems we are introducing disharmony into our midst by inviting people to voice their opinions.
It should be replaced with a section called:
"Tell us why you like this CD, concert...etc" and then have it closed to any responses... so as not to allow a dissenting view.
I know I'm being a bit sarcastic, but my point is this. I would think that all performers would have developed some thickness to their skins concerning criticism. I just kinda think it goes with the territory. I can't imagine that ones ego would be so large as to think they are loved by all, all the time. I see the debate as a good thing that can potentially enlighten and also serve as a learning experience. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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jimscottjr
Aloha
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2011 : 12:36:29 PM
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Maybe we should eliminate these two sections from Taropatch.net.
It seems we are introducing disharmony into our midst by inviting people to voice their opinions.
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But where would we be without passion, and a place to express it?
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Old Haole
http://www.haoleslackkey.com/ |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2011 : 1:23:25 PM
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Thanks for posting the links Darin.
All good musicians!
To be honest though, I was more content before the review than after. |
Bob |
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2011 : 2:25:59 PM
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I have resisted as long as I can.
I think Bill's original post has a theme in it that needs a little more note. The focus of it, in my opinion, was not who should win or who should not but rather the constant, sometimes low sometimes rumbling, way in which non-hawaiian resident musicians (whether pro or amateur)are treated compared to how resident Hawaiian musicians are treated.
Andy touched on it a little by saying he is invited in more times than invited out, but, by saying this admits he feels it.
I have felt it, not by everyone, not all the time, but I have had my share of ignored emails, stink eye, even someone actually getting up and moving to the other end of the kanikapila circle to avoid the haole.
It is there. If you do not see it, and hear it, you delude yourself. Some people say they don't care, they play what they want, when they want. They say what they want when they want. Excellent. I wish I had your gumption. Some of us are more "sensitive" about this sort of thing than others I guess.
I hope Bill changes his mind, he has more to lose than gain by leaving his love of so many years.
But this constant reminder, from the minority to be sure, and certainly not just from Hawaiian residents but also from non-residents who are passionate about this music, that we are inferior for a reason that we cannot change if we wanted to, gets old. It gnaws at me. Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm insecure. No doubt.
But it is hard, sometimes, to remember that when so many vocal people are clearly indicating that non-resident is inferior simply for that reason, that there are a lot of people out there who don't believe this. Maybe if some more of you (thank you LP)spoke up about it, us sensitive people wouldn't feel so shunned.
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2011 : 4:09:28 PM
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I am from Hawaii and, despite being ethnically a mix of Hawaiian, Chinese, and Caucasian, look like your average white person from the mainland or anywhere else in the world. I would be lying if I said that I never experienced some kind of racial bias against me growing up. Now as an adult, it happens sometimes. Less and less as I have gotten older. So I, like Andy, a person born and raised in Hawaii, know what you guys are talking about too. But then the next issue is who you choose to surround yourself with.
I have felt unwelcome playing with others before for whatever reason and it does suck. I just move on and try not to take it too personally. I don't think this occurs in Hawaiian music circles exclusively. Try joining any established group for any hobby.... you will always initially feel like an outsider unless the other people are especially welcoming. (Try joining a sports team or martial arts etc...)
If you expect anything more than that then you will always be disappointed IMO. Just don't give up because it isn't all hugs and kisses.
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As a recommendation for kanikapilas, I have only really been to ones on Oahu with the Abrigos, Duke and Derek. I can tell you that everyone is equally welcome from what I have seen first hand. I have seen total novices to professionals, locals, mainlander, and folks from other countries be accepted right in to the group and share together with everyone equally. The only thing that is looked down on is folks who try to either A) ego trips, ie people coming and trying to turn it into a personal concert or B) people who make others feel left out by icing them out. If you are great or bad or anything in between, no one will bat an eye and everyone will be encouraging. If you don't believe me, ask Kory, Jack, Dave, Wanda or anyone else who has been to one.
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Regarding the Grammy thing. I have met a lot of the TP people on here who have the strong opinions on who should or shouldn't win a particular Grammy and, to me, they're all really good people. So are the people who have the opposing view. Don't misinterpret or try to add anything else to it. They might have their personal reasoning for why they don't think a certain album/artist should/shouldn't win. It doesn't make them anti-mainlander or closed minded in general. It definitely doesn't mean they don't respect Amy Stillman, she gets much love from everyone I know. It just means they disagree with the NARA voters for whatever reason and are vocal about it. You should take it for what it is instead of as a condemnation of mainland folk who play Hawaiian music. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 04:18:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sm80808
I am from Hawaii and, despite being ethnically a mix of Hawaiian, Chinese, and Caucasian, look like your average white person from the mainland or anywhere else in the world. I would be lying if I said that I never experienced some kind of racial bias against me growing up. Now as an adult, it happens sometimes. Less and less as I have gotten older. So I, like Andy, a person born and raised in Hawaii, know what you guys are talking about too.
Brother, you make some excellent points, and I am inclined to agree with almost all of them. Still, I strive for civility in all things. I am not a trained musician. I am a trained communicator. Having studied how humans communicate, one comes to realize that words - even in English - have secondary meanings. In Hawaiian they would say "kaona." In English we would say "connotation." People - and as Amy intimated, I am not talking about any one person, but in general - are not careful with words. Typing on this screen should afford us the opportunity to read what we have written from every different a angle - viewing our words through the lens of those who might agree with us, then again as those who might not - in order to ensure that what we have written will not only not be misunderstood, but also will not injure or offend. There are so many polite and tactful ways to say the same thing. But instead we shoot from the hip, and we divide ourselves. There are too few fans and advocates of Hawaiian music to be divided into factions.
You said something interesting, and while I am not necessarily disputing it, I think it makes for an interesting study apropos of this thread. You likened yourself to Andy as "born and raised" in Hawai'i. I know Andy pretty well. We have performed together, eaten together, taken long car trips together, and had great times jamming with each other in his home and mine. And it has always been my understanding that Andy was born and raised - like me - in New Jersey. So it led to me wonder how many others believe that Andy was raised in Hawai'i, and if they believed this, why? Is it because of the way he talks about Hawaiian music and culture? Is it because he looks "local?" Or is it because of his way with the slack key guitar? Like Andy, I have been told all my life that if I didn't tell people that I am not Hawaiian, they would never know. But they would. Because invariably somebody asks you how you learned to play, and you have to tell them you learned by listening to records. And then they ask if your father or grandfather played, and you have to say "no." And then they ask where you're from - or, in my case, what your mother's maiden name was because my surname is not Hawaiian - and you have to admit that neither your mother nor your father are Hawaiian. And then no matter how well you play or sing, some people will view you - hear you - differently. To some people, these things matter.
I have hundreds of painful stories from the 20 years since I began performing Hawaiian music publicly. I don't yet have the nerve to share these stories - not only because they dredge up painful memories, not only because they are embarrassing to me, but also embarrassing to some of our heroes in Hawaiian music. Many of you have asked me - both on this board and privately - what any of this Daniel and Tia debate has ro do with me. It certainly does not have to do with awards, and it has nothing to do with the ridiculous notion that I could ever be Hawaiian or accepted as one. To those of you who say "do what you love" and "play what you feel," I am saying in reponse that when people you admire and repect tell you that you are not allowed to do that, you begin to doubt yourself before you begin to doubt the experts and their motivations for doling out their "advice." In case I haven't been clear on this point before, in my life, it has never really been a matter of being told "you're not good enough." In most cases, it has been a matter of "you have no right to be doing this in the first place" - befofe the guitar has even come out of the case, before I even pick up the microphone. Or, in other words, they know what I sound like before they have even heard me, and after they have heard me, in their heads, I still sound the same as before I played or sang,
Sometimes we hear with our eyes.
- Bill |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 04:50:57 AM
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I have no idea why I thought Andy was from Hawaii. Honestly, I probably don't pay close enough attention to people's bios. My bad...
You are right, Bill, some people do judge you before you have played a single note. Much the same as some people will judge you based on the car you drive, the phone you use, or any number of ridiculous superficial reasons. It does hurt more when it is someone you respect regarding something you love and pour a lot of blood sweat and tears into.
I can tell you, having a famous surname (at least in some circles) and having a "lineage" in Hawaiian music has not "shielded" me from that nor would I really want it to. At the very least, it gives you a little insight into a person who would make such judgments that you might not have able to get otherwise if they were all smiles and full of "aloha" to your face.
I am blessed to have grown up around a musical family. They taught me to really love and appreciate music in general. To me, that is probably the biggest blessing. That said, I have no doubt that many people come to truly love music and specifically Hawaiian music from many different backgrounds. I can tell by the passion of your posts that many of you appreciate it much more than me. Personally, I think that is a great thing. |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 08:52:33 AM
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I know I've posted this kind of observation before, but it bears repeating: Humans are tribal, and one of the things that follows from that is the possibility of in-group/out-group barriers and even hostility. And when one of the groups has been marginalized or dispossessed or exploited, the barriers can get pretty high and even topped with razor wire. But there are always those on the inside who welcome outsiders. I see this in all of the musical cultures I observe--"gypsy jazz" culture is remarkably like Hawaiian musical culture, right down to the sometimes-uneasy relationship between gypsy mentors and aspiring gadjo students. Certainly the "discovery" of blues and rural white traditions by middle-class urban kids 50 and 60 years back saw a mix of acceptance and suspicion on the part of the black and Appalachian musicians. Fortunately for everybody, acceptance far outstripped suspicion.
Music (like food) goes a long way toward dissolving suspicion and the rest of our potentially hostile tribal behaviors. It certainly seems to have worked that way with the blues and bluegrass and jazz. And those who cannot let go of their anger are the ones made poorer.
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fred d
Akahai
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:02:06 AM
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 I.m a redneck from the south! When I raced bicycles I let my leg to the talking. Now I let my music and I don't care what anyone thinks if they don't like what or how I play don't listen don't put me down becouse I not hawiian I'm a disabled vet and an American and I thought hawiia was a state not a country If I'm right than they are american not hawiian just as I am this type of behavour was settled In 1865 by Lincon read his speches and forget wear you were born and remember your an American red white and blue and proud play your music and be proud and if you don't like some don't listen to it it's all good |
fred davis |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 11:11:35 AM
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I have just started to read
"A Storyteller's Story: Kindy Sproat Of North Kohala"
An Autobiographical Oral History By Faye Mitchell
The book starts with a quote from Kindy:
"Oh Lord, let my words be tender and sweet, for tomorrow I may have to eat them"
I'll try to do better Kindy, I'll try. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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Basil Henriques
Lokahi
United Kingdom
225 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2011 : 06:05:44 AM
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Bill (and like-minded others) I'm with you all the way..I have lived in fruitless hope of being invited to perform at ANY of the Hawaiian Guitar Conventions, either stateside or even in Hawaii.. It will NEVER happen.. I'm afraid I don't subscribe to the falseties of (Apparent) "Aloha Spirit" propounded by many here.. I am probably too vitriolic for some and also perceived as a threat to the Status Quo amongst the "Island Players"..The first posts I made here were to say who I was... I was lambasted from all directions as being too forward with my self promotion.. Not the "Aloha Spirit way" of doing it I was told (In NO uncertain terms) well, where was the "Aloha Spirit" from those criticising me..
NO, I'm afraid that there will always be outsiders as long as the established Island Musicians and singers continue with their current mindset..There are of course exceptions and I bow my head and acknowledge them for who and what they are. Unfortunately looking in from outside is not possible for those already "Inside" and the fact that the rest of the world perceives Hawaiian Music quite differently to the die hard traditionalists seems to go straight over their heads, probably as they duck to avoid the confrontation.
On another forum I said:-
quote:
Well on that same theme, there are 3 "Special" students of mine who are enthusiastic about continuing the Hawaiian Pedal style that I play.
I must put up my hands and admit that the influences on me were the GREATS like Jules ah See, Billy Hew Len, Danny Stewart and Barney Isaacs (Alvin Kalanikau Isaacs Jr.)
I heard what they were doing in the studios in the 50's and 60's and developed my own copedent to emulate their style.
Three players over here in Europe that are fans of my style, have taken on studying the way I play and to that end they've actually purchased Fender 1000 pedal steels and adopted my copedent.
At this point in the post, If it was on an Hawaiian Steel web site, I would have to say:-
"I'm humbled by their actions"
But I don't subscribe to the CRAP of feigning humility, that seems to be a requirement to acceptance.
I'm NOT humbled, I'm NOT a humble person with a lot to be humble about (like some). I'm VERY proud of my fledglings, just like a mother hen..
Maybe the "Mother Hen" principle is what's prevalent with the "Island Music Fraternity" !
Mind you in my opinion some of the 'Local' eggs are rather "Addled" IMHO. |
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My Love Affair With Hawaiian Music Is Over
