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Bau
Lokahi

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  12:36:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives

Because "being Hawaiian" is not something you do. It's something you're born.






thats a bit general, could you please clarify your definition of this statement?

who do you mean this to apply to?
persons of hawaiian blood ancestry by birth (any reference to a certain % of ancestry?)?
those who are born and raised on the islands being of any ancestry?
does this also include 'hawaiian at heart' (in which case the persons born with a 'calling' or sence of aloha or how ever you want to define this concept) ?
Or a certain percentage of these?
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markwitz
`Olu`olu

USA
841 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  1:04:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives

But what there is none of - and what there can never be - is a class in how to be Hawaiian.

Because "being Hawaiian" is not something you do. It's something you're born.






“haole maoli” which roughly translates as “native white person.”

Marvin a.k.a. Puakea Nogelmeier, born in San Francisco raised in Minnesota, has an interesting interview that, in some ways, addresses your premise.

http://www.hanahou.com/pages/magazine.asp?Action=DrawArticle&ArticleID=547

"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain

Edited by - markwitz on 03/07/2011 1:12:46 PM
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu

USA
580 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  2:19:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit hwnmusiclives's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bau

quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives

Because "being Hawaiian" is not something you do. It's something you're born.


thats a bit general, could you please clarify your definition of this statement?

who do you mean this to apply to?
persons of hawaiian blood ancestry by birth (any reference to a certain % of ancestry?)?
those who are born and raised on the islands being of any ancestry?
does this also include 'hawaiian at heart' (in which case the persons born with a 'calling' or sence of aloha or how ever you want to define this concept) ?
Or a certain percentage of these?


Wow. I apologize. I didn't think there was anything general about my statement. I said it as plainly as I know how.

There is only one way to be "Hawaiian" - to be born to a parent of Hawaiian lineage. So, when using the term "Hawaiian," Hawaiians mean "of some percentage of Hawaiian ancestry." Hawaiians may fight over what percentage of Hawaiian blood quantum may be required to become eligible for homestead lands. But I have never heard Hawaiians disagree that a "Hawaiian" has to at least have Hawaiian blood. Many are familiar with the term haole. But I have often heard Hawai'i-born haoles refer to themselves as koko'ole - literally "without blood," but figuratively meaning, "without any Hawaiian blood lineage."

"Hawaiian" is not a club you can join or win yourself into by singing really well and pronouncing all the words correctly. Puakea Nogelmeier is one of my heroes. (Norm, who do you think handed me the Hawaiian Language Award at the Aloha Festivals Falsetto Contest?) But he gets it. He can do Hawaiian things as well as one can possibly be trained to do. But he is haole maoli. He can never be Hawaiian. People may tell you, "Your steel playing is so Hawaiian." But that does not mean you have become Hawaiian. Are there really people who trick themselves into thinking they have become Hawaiian through absorption or osmosis? I suppose they have, and they may be part of the problem for the "outsider" in Hawai'i.

Hawaiians would not call a Hawai'i-born person of Japanese, Samoan, Tongan, Chinese, or any other ancestry "Hawaiian." The haole child of an Irish-American man and an Italian-American woman is not Hawaiian simply because it is born while the husband and his wife are stationed at Fort Shafter or Schofield Barracks. A California-born haole who retires to Hawai'i does not become Hawaiian.

"Californian" is a reference to one's state of residence. "Hawaiian" is an ethnic identity. And if you think this is an arbitrary distinction, it is not. You cannot become Hawaiian. Even the beautful Hawaiian cultural tradition of hanai does not make one Hawaiian. I spent the last 20 years having this pounded into me by Hawaiians. If you have never been subjected to this, be grateful. It is humiliating. If you have never been subjected to this, it is likely because you have not attempted to do Hawaiian things in front of Hawaiians.

I was told nearly 20 years ago that I cannot refer to myself as a "Hawaiian musician." Now, if I performed classical music, I could say I was a "classical guitarist." But "classical" is a type of music, whereas "Hawaiian" is an ethnic identity - a race. I was told that I could say that I am a "musician who performs Hawaiian music." But I found this did not fit neatly on my business card. Later, I was told that I did not perform "Hawaiian music" because only a Hawaiian can perform Hawaiian music. I was told to say that I perform "Hawaiian-style music." Is this beginning to make sense?

I mean no disrespect, fellow New Jerseyan. But I think your questions raise a fundamental issue for me - and for this forum - that I hadn't considered before. Simply put, if we cannot agree on what it means to be "Hawaiian," we should be embarrassed before Hawaiians, and if we cannot agree on what it means to be "Hawaiian," then we are certainly in no position to judge whether music is "Hawaiian enough." The emperor had to be told he had no clothes on. That doesn't make him Adam.


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markwitz
`Olu`olu

USA
841 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  2:45:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill, you are right. Puakea Nogelmeier can never be Hawaiian. But he can be loved and respected by Hawaiians for his contributions to helping to preserve the language. If there is room for a Puakea Nogermeier in the hearts of Hawaiians, then there is also room for a Bill Wynne in some of those same hearts. Because you have a lot to contribute also.

"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain
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noeau
Ha`aha`a

USA
1105 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  5:18:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any exclusion based on blood is wrong. But, Those with koko Hawaiʻi have now chosen the phrase Kanaka maoli to describe oneʻs self. people with no koko Hawaiʻi may still be accepted into the community since anyone with any sense of humanity knows that the community of humanity supercedes any one ethnic branch. Pua kea was one of my teachers and a friend as well. He is widely respected and resented for his accomplishments. Not because he is haole but just because success breeds contempt. There is an emotional investment though by those with the koko who undertake the task to learn the language or the dance or the music so there is some strong reaction to the idea that people dismiss the importance of the undertaking by saying they are racist or mean spirited or whatever. Most of you guys are preaching to the choir but your approach is still from outside and as long as that is the case you may never understand what is at stake.The mere fact that some of you think that Hawaiian is a race is off on the wrong track from the beginning. Hawaiian is first of all an English word and does not describe kanaka maoli in any sense. The kanake maoli are a sub group as it were of the larger group categorized as Polynesian. Sub groups of some parent group can never be a race by itself. The kanaka maoli who criticize others are also wrong. But if the conversation leans toward the political then no one but kanaka maoli have a stake in the direction and outcome of any action that lends to sovereignty or self governance and that is usually the underlying reason for outbursts of anger and criticism being leveled at non kanaka maoli. the concept of who may or may not play Hawaiia music then is moot and meaningless in the scope of the broader picture.

No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō.
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sm80808
Lokahi

347 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  5:56:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives


I was told nearly 20 years ago that I cannot refer to myself as a "Hawaiian musician." . . .



Not to question your judgment or anything, but if someone said that to you, why would you choose to believe them? I don't really get that.

I have heard some old timers who had strong views about such things too, but I don't personally agree with them. As much as we choose to respect them, our elders/kupuna/teachers are humans first and aren't always right.
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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2368 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2011 :  7:55:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bau

... 'hawaiian at heart' (in which case the persons born with a 'calling' or sence of aloha or how ever you want to define this concept)?
That's a phrase that has always made me feel awkward, when others use it on my behalf. I understand fully the compliment they pay me, but I would never use it to describe myself.

I am who I am, the result of my ancestry, my environment, my upbringing and my life experiences. I am not saddened that I was not born Hawaiian, nor in the Islands. I am comfortable in my own skin, and would not trade my life for any other.

And I take great joy in that most of the people with whom I get the opportunities to play and enjoy the music of Hawai`i are also comfortable with me as I am (whether they are from the Islands, or Polynesian by bloodline, or none of the above).

I would hope that the majority of you here have similar experiences, and can shake off the few times that the situation becomes more negative, due to someone else's opinions of you - something you will never, ever be able to control.
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Bau
Lokahi

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  12:36:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thats in a nutshell isn't it, how can you define hawaiian music , if you can't define what it is to be hawaiian? you can use 'race' as a defining element but as had been said before , there has been such a mix of races, with the people of Hawai'i, people who orignialy migrated there from Alaska and elseware suposedly, then you have the tahitian invation. The music being discused is so heavily influenced by outside source, such as the use of spanish stringed instruments...
What is Hawaiian?

Hawaiian is refered to as the race of people that got to the Hawai'ian islands first. Finders keepers loser weepers. But no one can say if any people of that pure ancestry are left.

To get technical...
Hawai'i is a chain of islands in the Pacific.
so to be hawaiian technicaly you would have to spend a long time living off the land. That way the very 'aina is a part of you. This would be where ancestry would come into play because you are from people borne of the land for generations.
is it Aloha 'aina that matters? At but at what point have you been there long enough? Supposedly , physicaly , we renew all the cells in our bodied completley 4 times during our life times.

there so many different aspects and ways to look at this issue. which one is valid? By who's definitions? its realy a hard thing to define in black and white terms or fully quantified. And how do you do it in terms of music?

I agree with Retro, we are all amalgamations of so many things. Like Hawai'i. And the music labeled 'Hawaiian'.

When it comes ot the music, I thing 'Hawaiian style' is a perfectly valid expression and one I prefer to use. Or personaly I consider myself 'Hawaiian influenced'.

I guess its a human instinct to want to label everything and fit it into a nice neat little box and catagorise it. Its our often useful yet also often restrictive human illusion.

I have to agree with Retro in that everyone is an amalgamation of things, like Hawai'i and its music. IMHO this should be embraced instead of labels and barriers created by them, being such a part of the equation.


Edited by - Bau on 03/08/2011 12:39:10 AM
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wcerto
Ahonui

USA
5052 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  01:57:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What Al said. And he said it so plainly and so very eloquently.

And back onto the topic of the Grammy award...as much as the rest of us from the "mainland" might like to debate the topic, if the kanaka maoli are upset about the award, then who are the rest of us to say it is OK and they have no reason to be upset.

We, the outsiders, have absolutely no right to tell them how to feel. If they feel put out by the award, they feel so honestly.

But submit your Hawaiian music for a Grammy consideration full well knowing what the playing field entails, the mechanics of how the system works and who will be voting on your body of work.

And one of the posts above spoke about humilty. One of the highest terms of respect I hear folks from Hawai`i say about another is that "He is a humble man." Humble is one of the first words I think about when describing my Hawaiian friends. It is very integral to the Hawaiian way of life.

And bragging about your $100,000 fashion outfit while standing on the red carpet is pretty far from humble.

So in my absolutely (I promise) final analysis of this subject, perhaps a lack of humility surrounds these awards, just by nature of the beast. And perhaps that lack of humility is what upsets those in and of Hawai`i who complain about the award.

Before you jump all over me for saying that, just stop. Stop and think about it. Hindsight is 20/20.


Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda
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Bau
Lokahi

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  04:58:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you make good points too wanda.

if it is down to only the kanaka maoli participating in judging to decide and make the rules, I am wondering, did the ancient hawaiians have any sort of contests or ways they ranked performers of thier chants and other arts? What other music awards are their besides these grammys? Are those in keeping with this or some sort of tradition? If this is the criteria, are the grammys even valid or worth attention?
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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2368 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  05:21:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bau

Hawaiian is refered to as the race of people that got to the Hawai'ian islands first. Finders keepers loser weepers. But no one can say if any people of that pure ancestry are left.
And, of course, there's very strong evidence of long-gone groups of people who populated the Islands prior to the arrival of those now called "Hawaiians."
quote:
Originally posted by Bau

I guess its a human instinct to want to label everything and fit it into a nice neat little box and catagorise it. Its our often useful yet also often restrictive human illusion.
I strongly agree - and I like to poke holes in those boxes and admire others who do so; it's what keeps the arts alive.
quote:
Originally posted by wcerto

We, the outsiders, have absolutely no right to tell them how to feel.
The only "outsiders" from the Grammys are non-NARAS members. The Grammy Awards are not intended to be a defining source of what is or is not "Hawaiian music" - they are merely a reflection of the recording industry celebrating itself. Too many people (due to our passion about music) associate other characteristics to them.
quote:
Originally posted by wcerto

perhaps a lack of humility surrounds these awards, just by nature of the beast.
Yep. It's an insider's party. Same with the Academy Awards, the Emmy Awards, the Golden Globes, the Tony Awards, etc. etc. etc. I would hope this surprises no one.
quote:
Originally posted by Bau

What other music awards are their besides these grammys?
Many regions of the world present their own music awards, with a more direct focus on the diversity and traditions of their part of the world; Hawai`i, of course, has the Nā Hōkū Hanohano Awards. But keep in mind, these are also industry celebrations, not based on the general public's voting tastes or on sales figures.

For "people's choice" awards in Hawai`i, there's also the Hawai`i Music Awards - but if you've been following those for any length of time, you'll find that many local musicians choose not to submit their work for these.
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu

USA
580 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  07:51:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit hwnmusiclives's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Retro

For "people's choice" awards in Hawai`i, there's also the Hawai`i Music Awards - but if you've been following those for any length of time, you'll find that many local musicians choose not to submit their work for these.

This topic came up on Facebook the other day. I find it ironic that the Hawai'i Music Awards (HMAs) were given birth in 1994 in... Scranton, PA. And guess who wrote the original charter, rules, and entry requirements? (I would love to pull out my old IBM 386 and show you. It's a hoot!)

When I wrote the HMA documents at Johnny Kai's request, the contest was intended to be adjudicated by "experts" in Hawaiian music. As an outsider, I felt that this would not only give a fair shake to outsiders who perform Hawaiian music, but it would also be quite an education for the Hawai'i-based judges - an education about what Hawaiian music sounds like in places other than Hawai'i. By the time my documents reached Hawai'i, however, the nature of the contest had been changed to popular vote. (The prevailing wisdom was that Hawai'i-based judges would also be HARA members. So wouldn't the same artist that wins a Hoku also end up winning an HMA?) So, anyway, a guy like me hadn't a chance because the voting took place by ballot that you could pick up at your local music store... in Hawai'i. Those with excellent memories will recall that in that first year of the contest Leabert Lindsey won in the slack key category. I have always credited myself with that win because the rules indicated that a category should be considered "closed" if there were fewer than two entrants in the category. And the only other entrant in the slack key category was "Mohalu" by a then very young Bill Wynne. (You're welcome, Leabert.)

The interesting "twist" in the evolution of the HMAs, of course, is the advent of (or, at least, increased exposure to) the internet. You no longer need to be near a music store in Hawai'i to cast your vote. You can vote with the click of a mouse from the comfort of your own home. This now gives a guy like Gerald Ross in Michigan a fighting chance to win such an award. But I see a Gerald Ross victory at the HMAs as much more controversial than a Tia and Daniel win of a Grammy. A guy like Gerald plays many different styles and genres and is known to guitarists everywhere. Those who vote for a Gerald Ross recording at the HMAs might be voting for his work in country, blues, or bluegrass and may never have heard Gerald's more Hawaiian-style recordings. If the Grammy Awards are being painted as a "popularity contest," then what are the HMAs - where you don't have to know squat about music or musicians to vote? With all due deference to Gerald Ross, all you need to win the HMAs is a really robust mailing list. Do you send your plumber a Christmas card? Do you think you can count on his vote? And to add insult to injury, the same person can vote a seemingly unlimited number of times - as many times as one has e-mail accounts. The only thing better than one ill-informed vote is multiple ill-informed votes from the same person. Do we really put our faith and trust in an awards program whose motto might as well be, "Vote early and often?"

I had a vision. The closest thing that remains to that vision is Ka Himeni 'Ana. I can't take credit for that one... But do not be fooled into thinking that the HMAs have any more credibility than the Hokus or the Grammy Awards in this regard.



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thumbstruck
Ahonui

USA
2173 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  6:33:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Play music with your friends, enjoy learning new songs, make good memories. Jus' press.
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Retro
Ahonui

USA
2368 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  6:59:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Retro's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I enjoy the perspectives you all bring to this - and Bill, I think I recall you mentioning the HMAs once before - it's fascinating that you were so involved in their birth.
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Baritone
Lokahi

USA
136 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2011 :  10:32:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmm. Interesting conversations. Music is good. Do it no matter what the metre. Maybe, just slapping your body...or bones. Do you feel good?

Herb
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