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bobby3dog
Akahai
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2003 : 1:08:40 PM
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This is for all you guys who might be looking for a slack key friendly guitar: Before you buy one of the fancy expensive ones or a so..so inexpensive one, check out a Martin 00015 S! They cost from 7 to 800 dollars(new) depending on where you shop and they are amazing! All mahogany, slotted headstock, great sounding and apparently Martins best kept secret!
this is my gift to you all,
Allan (aka b3d)
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b3d |
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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2003 : 10:33:27 PM
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Aloha Allan
Welcome to the taro patch. I did try one of those all mahogany Martin guitars once and it had a booming bass tone. I really like my Taylor nylon series with mahogany body and spruce top. It works great for tunings with a C bass.
Kawika
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bluzdulcimer
Aloha
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 12:50:51 AM
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I've been curious about the guitars I see in some early
Hawaiian photos. They look like small, parlor size
guitars. Were these used for slack key? They look
like they have short scales, which could be a problem
tuned down to C. The smallest guitar I have found that
is still able to handle slack key tunings is a Larrivee
parlor, which has a 24" scale. The 12 fret neck and
short scale produces a very sweet sound. Anyone using a
guitar with a shorter scale for slack key? |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 03:17:47 AM
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| Welcome to the Larrivee Parlor fan club Hollis! There are a few of us here. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 09:06:26 AM
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Aloha e bluzdulcimer,
Yes, parlor size guitars were used for slack key -- and still are  . I use one, which I was describing on TP recently: a koa/cedar with 14-fret neck. It has a big sound and loves G Wahine. Parlors were really popular in the 19th (I was gonna say "last" but can't do that anymore!) century. There was a thread about it here on TP this summer: http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1007
Short scale could work for slack key. The flapping of loosened strings can be modified by things other than scale length. I'm not the engineer, but some of those factors are string gauge, and action height. Put heavier strings on and raise the action (relative to what you might play for EADgbe tuning) and I think you'd have all the compensation you needed.
As to whether those old parlors really were short scale, or just look it in the pictures, I have no idea.
aloha,
Sarah |
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bluzdulcimer
Aloha
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 10:20:49 AM
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Yes, I love Larrivee parlor guitars. I have tried to convince
some of my parlor guitar playing friends to have a parlor guitar
festival, but so far no takers.
Good point, Sarah, about using heavier gauge strings
on a short scale guitar to compensate for less tension. I was
thinking more of tone than tension, but a heavier string gauge
can also improve the tone quality. So can someone point me
to an early recording where one of these parlor guitars were
actually used, so I might hear it? |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 11:30:50 AM
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Actually, those are (mostly) *not* true parlor guitars. Ku`uipo, your Mauel, and mine, is really a Size 0, in Martin terminology. It is just the kind of guitar that is in the old pictures, such as those in Ozzie's book (that he got from the Bishop Museum). That was *the* standard guitar size in those days (around the turn of the last century). About 13 - 13 1/2 inches lower bout width, but a longish body (about 19 inches, as I remember). The scale length is/was 24.9 inches, as opposed to the now common 25.4 inches. Some modern luthiers and shops (such as Goodall) call their smallest models "parlors", but they are just about the dimensions of the 0, regardless of their shape. See http://www.goodallguitars.com/parlor.htm Just a hint: luthiers commonly call a scale length 25", when it is 24.9", and 25 1/2" when it is 25.4". You Larrivee parlor owners might want to measure from the nut to the 12th fret and multiply by 2, in order to get the actual scale length. It is almost certainly not exactly 24 inches, as advertised, and, believe me, a fraction of an inch makes a difference in string tension.
About slacking strings on short scale instruments. We have not found it a problem to play in Leonard's C with light guage John Pearses on a seriously short scale such as the one that Sarah is playing in her picture. That *is* close to 24 inches, but I don't remember exactly what it was. The action is super low, too. Actually, just a few weeks ago it had Extra Lights (.011 1st string, etc.) and it was a little floppy, but OK. My Mauel is a 12 fret with the 24.9" scale and has JP Lights and Leonard's C is just not a problem. The action is 2/32" treble and 3/32" bass, which is like electric guitar action. No problem with buzzes after proper set up. Of course, all this is also affected by how you play. If you dig in like a gorilla, you will move those strings all over the place. I don't think that is the way to get a nahenahe sound :-) We simply don't use mediums at all on any guitar - we choose the guitar for what it sounds like the way we play it. Let *it* do the work; that's what the money we shell out is for.
12 fretters are known for their sweet resonant sound. It mostly has to do with where the bridge is placed - right in the middle of the lower bout - the sweet spot. When 14 fretters came along (the OM, in Martin terminology), the manufacturers just moved the bridge up toward the sound hole to accomodate the extra length of the 2 more frets above the body, without changing scale length (much), which added more "punch" to the sound, but gave up some of the nice tonality. However, as with wine :-), it is the maker that is ultimately responsible for the taste, er...tone. We have quite a few 14 fretters that are as sweet sounding as any guitar made, regardless of conformation.
...Reid
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bobby3dog
Akahai
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 12:27:01 PM
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Hey Kawika, thanks for the direct reply....but I can't tell if you actually tried a 00015S.lIt's not like any of the other solid mahoganies. Yes it has a booming bass but also a substantial treble and can be played softly with out loosing its depth or sustain.The others ,I think, are just Martins entry level inexpensives. The 00015S was(and I hope still is)an accidental gift.....any way nuff said. Maybe its just my kind for my style (the old style)
Allanquote:
Originally posted by kawika
Aloha Allan
Welcome to the taro patch. I did try one of those all mahogany Martin guitars once and it had a booming bass tone. I really like my Taylor nylon series with mahogany body and spruce top. It works great for tunings with a C bass.
Kawika
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Stacey
Lokahi
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 4:05:36 PM
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Aloha e Allan & Welcome to taropatch.net!
Ooooh, the Martin 00015 S sure sounds sweet! And what a great price! I played one a few months back and was Really Impressed. After playing a Martin, I had GAS really bad ~ that's Guitar Acquisition Syndrome. HeeHee
To get money without giving my husband a heart attack, I sold my cello that I hadn't played in a coupla years. I almost bought the Martin 00015 S, but I knew if I didn't get a guitar with abalone inlay & koa wood that I would have GAS forever! I ended up with a Martin SPD 16K and got a killer deal on it ~ I knew a local guitar shop had the guitar I wanted in stock for $$$. I printed out a much lower price quote from Elderly Instruments and used it as a negotiation tool at the guitar shop. I ended up paying $$ instead of $$$. I could not be happier with it!!!
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 6:39:43 PM
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One of the sweetest sounding small bodied Martins I've played was a 0017 at Buffalo Bros a while back (when I was trying out Keith's future Rainsong  ). I think it was somewhere in the $1K range.
My Rainsong OM1000 is a great sounding small body guitar but its not in the same price range as the 15 series (or even 17 series) Martins). |
Dusty |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2003 : 7:28:13 PM
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Reid's guitar history lesson is right on the money--almost all steel-string guitars up to the development of the 000/OM and the dreadnaught were 0-size or a bit smaller. The "parlor" designation is an invention of the last 30 years or so (if that)--I first heard it at guitar shows in the '80s, describing the old Washburns and Bauers and such that were kicking around for a few hundred bucks. Most of these were 12-inch/12-fret/ladder-braced instruments that had been aimed at the lower end of the market from 1880-1930. These are the guitars you see in historical photos of Hawaiian players--or lumberjacks or jug bands or midwestern front-porch pickers. Look at Tom Wheeler's AMERICAN GUITARS and you'll see lots of them
I have several parlors from 1900-1927, and they're all very nice slack key instruments, surprisingly loud and sweet, if not as complex as, say, a Goodall or Collings or my 1920 0-18.
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ebige
Aloha
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2003 : 1:54:29 PM
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One thing about the earlier guitars until the early 20th century - most had gut strings,
in spite of the fact that metal strings go way back - to the 1500s.
Sears sold a couple steel-stringed instruments around 1895 but Martin says they didn't offer them until the 1920s.
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bones
Aloha
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2003 : 2:21:04 PM
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Howzit everyone,
I may be a bit unorthodox in the guitar I picked, but I love it. I only had a budget of $500.00 at the time and so I tried a bunch of guitars in that price range and found a gem. It's called a Garrison G20. It's a dreadnought body type with a cedar top and solid birch back and sides. It has that Buzz Feinten tuning system, tusq nut and saddle, and a unique bracing system that makes the guitar resonate as one unit. The bracing is made to accomadate most of the Fishman pickups and pre-amps if you ordered a guitar without electronics. The sound was impressive for its price. Well balaced and sounds good in Taropatch as well as Leonard's C. I payed $444.00 and it included a Hard case. I may not upgrade for awhile.
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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2003 : 3:49:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bobby3dog
Hey Kawika, thanks for the direct reply....but I can't tell if you actually tried a 00015S.
Hi Allan
I'm not sure which model Martin I tried either. That was a couple years ago. It was a dreadnought size and did not have the slotted head like yours. Also the one I tried did not have good treble response as yours does. Sounds like you found a nice guitar at a great price!
Aloha no, Kawika |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2003 : 4:02:04 PM
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I, too, have some Guitar Acquisition Syndrome stuff, but a pretty low budget. (and I just popped for a Miranda travel guitar, so maybe I got no place to write this, but...)-- However, as much as I love a "special sounding guitar," it ain't the guitar that really makes the sound - A few years ago I bought a beat up entry level Yamaha for $25.oo at the Aloha Stadioum Flea Market - later that day I had a lesson with Ozzie - we strung it up and Ozzie played it a bit - that thing sounded so sweet you couldn't believe it. I know that a guitar that is set up poorly will make it hard to play, and a Grimes can make a lot of players sound good -- but it's really the technique (and the ability of the player to get te feeling into the music) that's gonna make the sound in the long run. So, my recommendation, especially to people stating out - spend more time and effort getting good technique and the right feeling, and not so much on the guitar - Use your extra $$ to get some lesons from a good teacher.
Raymond
San Jose |
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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2003 : 10:43:01 PM
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| I have a theoretical question I would like to hear some opinions on. If you had to choose between these two guitars which one would you choose to own and why? A Grimes "Beamer" nylon or a Grimes "Hapa" nylon ? Also what type wood for the body and top ? |
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