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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
 Posted - 05/10/2005 : 07:58:07 AM
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Aloha Ray, I am not angry with you. I apologize if in overstating my point I got a little colorful. It seems either I didn't make my point clear or some of people(unknowingly to me) have beaten this proverbial dead horse so often that whenever they see the words "where's the tabs" they put up your defenses.
My point is simply this. Some of us have asked for TABS not knowing where the written resources were because we are new to the Patch. It seems as though it's automatically assumed that we are not willing to pay others for their hard work. That's couldn't be any further from the truth because we didn't ask for anyone to "slip them under the table" to us. In your assuming that, it places undue guilt on us. And that is what I was offended by.
If people have had problems in the past regarding cockaroaching, I'm sorry. I can see your point, but please don't assume that we are all cockaroaches from the word go.
Reid, I agree with Dave, debating is a good way to clear the path to communication. I respect your opinion as much as the next guy. Even if you differ from my beliefs at least by showing up you may be able to clear the air, change an opinion, see a different angle you may not have seen before and maybe right a wrong but you'll miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. And I may learn something out of it too.
Some of us can afford some but not all resources but as relative newbies, we do what we can to kokua the artists.
Ray, if I took your post out of context I do apologize.
Jesse, thank you for your background information it helps me understand why the Big AUWE.
Dave, being new to this forum(and it is my first forum ever)I am still learning the bells and whistles. It isn't that I can't use the search function, it just seemed easier to ask than to dig into the archives. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge.
Andy, sorry Bruddah, I didn't mean to bring up dirty laundry. Perhaps a FAQ section to help us rookies avoid the quick sand might help.
To those that understand my point of view, thank's for backing me.
And finally to you Poipicker, sorry that this happened to your thread I hope it doesn't deter you from enjoying this forum as a valuable resource.
I hope I made my point a little clearer.
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Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
Edited by - Kiwini on 05/11/2005 12:24:11 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 10:31:37 AM
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I like Jessie comment, "just talk with people you know who play and share one-on-one. If you don't know any other slackers, email someone on this board. If they don't have TAB, they might tell you where to find it or teach you over the phone. Almost everybody will bend over backwards to help another player. "
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Auntie Nancy
`Olu`olu
USA
593 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 12:14:06 PM
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Hi John,
I didn't find an e-mail for you in Taropatch, and didn't keep the one from before. I wasn't going to post here again..... but the field of music, ki ho'alu is way further spread than the artists who are giving workshops, concerts, writing tab books etc. Or - I'm new to this.... maybe the working definition of ki ho'alu is not open tunings and Hawai'ian songs, but just the songs that have been recorded by the handful of artists of whom folks speak and are trying to protect. It it's that narrow of a definition, then I bow out gracefully and mea culpa. The songs I wanted to learn are the ones I heard in Lana'i City about 35 yrs ago...... along with some of the current tunes, and tunes that are old and recently recorded. I haven't the desire or ability, nor the stamina to learn all the songs that have written tab somewhere. but pulling people together is what I do well. getting communication going, solving problems. and I like to Help - I don't like to steal... actually, I've never tried it. I have some tabs and haven't given them to anyone and wouldn't without asking.
so I'll assume I don't know the definition of ki ho'alu, but will eventually learn.
n
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nancy cook |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 10:31:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by `Ilio Nui
Please don't promise that. It's the voice of reason that occasionally needs to be repeated to people who can't use the "Search" function for this forum.
Mahalo,
Dave
Aloha Dave,
I don't know who you are referring to, but being a newbie I had no clue the search function existed. I also didn't know the topic of tabs was such a burning one, so it wouldn't have entered my mind to research it before asking. Thanks for pointing it out however, its a pretty cool tool. I've found all kinds of stuff!!!
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Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
Edited by - Kiwini on 05/11/2005 10:41:55 AM |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 11:20:38 AM
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Steve,
I refer to no one in particular and if I offended you, my bad. Yeah, the Search engine is pretty cool. Did you find the TAB discussions by Ozzie Kotani. It certainly gets to his heart of the issue.
A couple of years ago, Keola sent me some TAB from his personal stash. They were copies of his handwritten work that he gifted to me, but he also made the stipulation that I share them with no one. To this day, nobody but me has seen them (my wife is the exception, but she could care less), not even my playing partner. On the other hand, I've spent good money for workshops from people like Ozzie and Keola and have dozens of TABs. If I'm working one on one with someone I will sometimes share the work, but for the most part, I don't.
Just keep Pressin'
Dave |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 12:14:46 PM
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Dave, none taken. I found several articles but could't find the one by Ozzie. I'll search when I have more time. Unless you want to save me some time and direct me to it. Anyway, I have more than enough tabs, after getting two of Keolas books/cds plus his online stuff, to last me while I'm learning to read. I also have the DVD's by Patrick, John, George, and Keoki to work on. Well, its not really work now is it, but it's plenty. Are you involved with the Watsonville gig?
See ya on the 101,
Steve |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 1:30:16 PM
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Dave, Where else is John performing on that road show? And, thanks for the link.
Steve |
Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 1:31:43 PM
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Dave, Where else is John performing on that road show? And, thanks for the link.
Steve |
Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 10:29:26 PM
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Yeah! Back to TABS!
Thanks to Dave and the search function I have been able to read through many of the posts that were submitted a year ago regarding the issues of tablatures. In doing so, I hope I have a more balanced understanding of the issues.
It appears that the topic of tablatures and the issues surrounding it is old hat to some and quite frankly after reading through the plethora of posts, I have had my fill for a day as well. But it is like the old professor who is tired of repeating his lectures and the student that is eager to learn, that I haven’t quite put this topic down.
In reading through the many posts, it becomes obvious that there is some real heated diversity.
The situation that occurred with Ozzie Kotani seems to be at the center of the slack key issue as far as I can tell. It also seems that he is highly regarded when speaking on the issue, having been a victim. Rightfully so, he has taken the high road in protecting his rights. However, in reading through his letter to Craig Patchett it is apparent that he doesn’t always hold the hard line when it comes to the issue.
The following are quotes taken from Ozzie Kotani’s letter, posted May 12, 2005, to Craig Patchett regarding Ozzie’s thoughts on the matter of Slack Key/Guitar Tablature. The full thread can be found on Taropatch.net, in the Hawaiian Slack Key / Hawaiian Music/Tab Rules folder originally posted by John Nelson on May 1, 2004 in which John asked the question “What’s the rules on sharing and/or distributing guitar tabulations?” I recommend reading the entire letter to get a better understanding of the following quotes.
“My concern is players outside the tradition who see a niche to publish with little concern for what makes slack key unique.”-Ozzie Kotani
“That statement, "What harm is there in sharing tab, especially slack key. Isn't it Hawaiian to share?" Boy, maybe I should counter, "What harm is there in sharing copies of my favorite book, especially American novels. Isn't it American to share?"-Ozzie Kotani
“ The bottom line is - if you don't profit from it - and the motivation is to truly "share" - there probably is no harm.” – Ozzie Kotani
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1669&whichpage=4&SearchTerms=Ozzie%2CKotani
Based on Ozzie's letter, I just don't understand why people have to be so adamant about taking the hardline on this issue. I mean really, in the spirit of Aloha, "can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King
Steve |
Edited by - Kiwini on 05/12/2005 12:12:39 PM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 12:47:35 PM
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Eh Kiwini,
You'll get some hardliners here, but we're not all that way. But no one, even those willing to help, are going to say "I'll share TAB of (song) by (artist)" in this forum because it could get Andy in hot water.
And there are other concerns, too. This subject always makes me ponder the bigger question of "what is slack key?" Is it a guitar style, or is a cultural tradition that needs to be preserved within the context of the culture? If it is a cultural artifact and not just a guitar style, then artists and teachers from the home culture feel some sense of ownership, the kind of ownership that's not defined by U.S. law. Many teachers want to see it taught and perpetuated, but only within the context of the culture from which it sprang, preserving the artistic license of the performers and arrangers. From that attitude comes the standoffishness you hear from some artists who don't want people TABbing their stuff and passing it around. To some that means they can't take part in slack key unless you can fly to the islands or take a high-priced workshop.
But don't think slack key "belongs" to anybody. Just get out your guitar and play, arrange and perform. And if you want to learn someone else's arrangement or composition, buy the book, TAB it out yourself, or listen and learn. It's not being about being uptight, it's about showing respect.
Jesse |
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sbar15
Lokahi
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 1:05:42 PM
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Tab again!! People really need to feel the aloha, learn the basics from DVD's or maybe one book. Then let the aloha flow from within your own self |
Steve |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 1:59:53 PM
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Jesse and Steve:
The two of you just summed it up for a lot of people here, myself included.
I myself wouldn't share an IN PRINT publication for which the artist receives a percentage.
It does feel sometimes like folks are a little unbending in their attitudes. There are others here who will share any and everything.
Just not on this site.
It is a fine line sometimes as has been discussed before.
I'll be the first to say that so many 'names' are thrown around here, that I'd be somewhat turned off if I'd just discovered this site.
It may appear elitist sometimes. Some no doubt foster that intentionally or not.
The good news is that it really is not that way. Not on purpose. There is a vast wealth of knowledge on this site. I think it ultimately cool that so many members here are getting the info so to speak from the horses mouth. The real source for the music we love so much. That's invaluable.
Like a lot of people here, what I'd personally like to see is for more people to branch out. Create their own kiho'alu. You don't have to be this, that, or the other. Just have to have a guitar. It's in the heart. The beauty is that if it's real, it'll be accepted. If not, it won't.
Copying copyrighted material for distribution is illegal.
Getting as many people as possible involved in this music is what is going to preserve it. Keep it so exclusive that others shun to talk of it, and it will go away.
Take for example the person in North Dakota. (I don't know if we have any, it's just an example). Something happened in their life that made them attune to slack key. They are hungry for anything about it. We're here just for that reason. I'd think it good if we all gave ourselves an attitude check now and then and make sure we're really not conveying something else entirely.
What I can speak for is that the attitude isn't coming from the artists. They have to be some of the most approachable, real people around. Because of that, a lot of folks here have their respect. Like what JWN said, when Keola Beamer asked him to not, he didn't. It really is their livelyhood.
I like what Jesse and Steve both said. Get some books, buy the music, learn. If any of us here can assist, we will. Folks can give positions, fingerings, styles, advice, and aloha. It's all free.
My own opinion is if you want to learn say a particular piece......try it. Cold at first, note for note. By ear. Right or wrong. If available, buy the music. See how yours and theirs differ.
Then throw it out on this forum. Put them all together.
You'll be a pro in no time.
Cheers
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my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 2:03:25 PM
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HEY CRAIG !!!
I JUST GOT 300 POSTS !!!
Can I get like a cool new moniker or something?
'Jus sayin', that's all |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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