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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2006 : 08:00:50 AM
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quote:
The part of this discussion that does chap my arss is the argument that the artist is losing money because of the tabs being posted.
quote:
I realize most of this discussion has been about the “large” guitar tabs sites and hopefully a small site like mine isn’t on anybody’s radar
Umm, I don't mean to raise your hackles, Dominator, but I just visited your website and found numerous TABs to songs that in no way are in the public domain:
Yesterday, Imagine, Lulu's Back in Town, Every Breath You Take, Crazy, Something Stupid... and quite a few more.
Now, it may be that you have rec'd permission from the artists who performed the songs, but that's different from getting permission from the copyright owners. Maybe you did that, too, but I didn't see the usual wording that goes along with that either on your website or on the PDF files I looked at.
Sure, maybe these songs aren't availble in TAB books, so no one's actually losing sales. But that's not the issue. Last time I looked, "Yesterday" was covered by copyright. Do you, or I, or anyone else have the right to publish that song without permission? Yep, distributing a PDF file is publishing, by definition.
As for size, the counter on the bottom of the page shows that I was the 219,795th person to visit your "small site." Again, there's no way to tell how many visitors have downloaded TAB from your site, but even assuming 1%; it is significant.
By contrast, most guitar and uke instruction books sell in the low four figures -- 3500 copies is considered a "best seller" by Mel Bay. And they are scrupulous in getting proper clearance and paying royalties. I know, because I couldn't get permission for some arrangements I'd recorded.
(Mechanicals and publishing are two very different animals, BTW. Just because you can record a song does not give you the right to publish an arrangement -- that's why my uke book doesn't have "Sleepwalk" in it, and why I can't publish TAB for my slack key arrangement of "Mood Indigo.")
Now, before you get all huhu, I am not trying to flame you, Dominator. I know that you are dedicated to teaching the ukulele, and that you personally don't make any money from what you characterize is a service. And I truly appreciate your skill as a musician and transcriber. I personally couldn't care less that you publish the songs you do; but I won't be downloading any of the files I glanced at.
Rather, I want to make a point here about what this discussion is about. "Sharing" a few TABs among your friends is not a problem. But the wholesale publication and distribution of copyrighted material on the web is the problem that started this thread.
And, for what I truly hope will be the last time, this discussion has nothing to do about learning from TAB. It's about copyrights... and wrongs.
Sure, we can transcribe a performance for personal use. But publishing it is another matter. It ain't your right, it ain't my right -- for better of for worse, the only one who has the right to publish a song is the copyright holder. That's why it's called copyright, innit?
We have certain obligations to artists and songwriters -- and publishers -- that are simply good manners. We ask permission, we respect the kumu, we share what we are learning with our friends so we can perpetuate a traditional skill. All good.
But it copyright is also protected by law. If you don't like the current law (and, to tell you the truth, I don't), then work to change it.
Copyright law doesn't give a hoot if you share TAB -- or songs, or a book, or anything else you own-- among a few friends. Just like most cops will let you drive a few miles above the speed limit. So no one's gonna bust into you garage during a jam session.
And, regarding the comment that up is up to the songwriters to protect our work -- ummm, we do that. It's called "registering the copyright."
Go back and read the NY Times post that started this thread. As I said, if 220,000 hits is "small," then the websites under discussion must be truly huge -- and that, my friends, is the crux of the matter.
Whew... I think I'll shut down the computer and play my guitar for a while.
Like Annie always says, "Play nice now."
cheers,
Mark |
Edited by - Mark on 09/01/2006 08:24:34 AM |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 5:53:06 PM
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Nicely put, Mark.
Play on!
As will I,
Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2006 : 05:09:26 AM
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| I'll jam with you on "Mood Indigo" when you're in Seattle, Mark. |
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Dominator
Lokahi
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2006 : 05:37:20 AM
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Mark,
I hear you loud and clear. I will say that of all these copyright discussions, that have taken place here and in other forums on the web, your arguments/explanations make much more sense than most and I thank you for that.
Dominator
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www.dominator.ukeland.com
www.myspace.com/dominatoruke
Practice makes Practice Perfect! |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 05:44:38 AM
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Wow!
Everybody get in line now... |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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MentoBuggah
Aloha
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 12:11:47 PM
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I'm not good at getting in line (or staying in scale, for that matter!) Anybody who wants to know who's behind this latest erosion of personal freedom and/or get involved can start here:
http://www.guitarzone.com/musato/ |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 2:53:13 PM
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Thanks for posting the link.
No worries. Sign up for the "Music Educators" group. Send 'em a donation if you want.
Remember, I said "If you don't like the law... work to change it."
Hoewever, I'd suggest reading the rest of this post first. You might be surprised to learn what's really behind this particular "erosion of personal freedom."
To quote from the Musato manifesto:
quote:
A student hears a record on the radio, wants to learn the guitar part, and plays the CD recording of the song for his or her teacher. The teacher subsequently shows the student how to play the part. Sometimes, to insure that the student remembers the lesson, the teacher also writes down the part on some paper, depending on the teacher - student relationship.
Uh hunh. And that is perfectly legal. Is that what the fuss is about?
No, it's not.
Its about money, pure and simple. A great big stinkin' pile of money.
Here's a random page from the GuitarZone, the "free" site that set up Musato:
http://www.guitartabs.cc/artistbrowse.php?letter=h
Notice the ads running down the right side of the page?
As near as I can tell (cuz they've registered through "DomainsByProxy.com http://www.domainsbyproxy.com/), GuitarZone was set up by a company called Burst! Media for the sole purpose of selling advertising.
http://www.burstmedia.com/release/advertisers/adcontact.asp?siteurl=www.guitartabs.cc
quote:
Welcome to our network of specialty content websites - quality destination sites for diverse audiences who are passionate about their interests. Our member sites fall into a number of channels pertaining to different topics of interest.
Here's their pitch:
quote:
BURST!
• captures vital demographic information on our member sites’ web users, including age, gender, income, education, and web habits. BURST!’s Site Demographic Survey:
• Is administered by Boston Research Group, an independent, third-party market research firm
• Allows advertisers to clearly identify sites attracting their target demographics
They manage sites relating to music, fine arts, automotive... just about any forum you can think of.
Here's some demographic info on their "Music Channel" to entice advertisers to sign up. Notice the comparisons to MTV and RollingStone:
http://www.burstmedia.com/release/advertisers/category_sheet.asp?cat=25
Yep, sharing TAB on the 'net is just like a teacher jotting down the chords on a napkin....
quote:
While other advertising networks have focused on targeting with technology, we've focused on what's really important to advertising professionals - the devoted, passionate audiences who regularly interact with online content they really care about. Through the use of customized advertising solutions and effective ad-management technology, BURST! delivers more than 4 billion monthly advertising impressions, across 477 content channels, for its more than 3,400 specialty-content web sites.
Yes, that's 4 billion monthly ad hits!
Again, I don't care what ya do. Join MuSATO, write to your congressperson, burn Sonny Bono in effigy…
But there ain't no way I'm going to help some ad agency increase their profits at the expense of my fellow artists.
Yours for truth and beauty,
Mark
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MentoBuggah
Aloha
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 6:26:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Yes, that's 4 billion monthly ad hits!
But there ain't no way I'm going to help some ad agency increase their profits at the expense of my fellow artists.
In what way are the 4 billion ad hits at your expense? The punk-ass kid who spent 8 hours figuring the tab to 'Nothing Else Matters' isn't getting a dime, and James Hetfield isn't losing a dime. If Mel Bay wants to advertise on the site, I'd be happy to give them a hit! |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 6:34:55 PM
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| Them what can, do. Them what can't, teach. Them what can't teach, administrate. (No offense to "Admin" Andy). I heard that humans can keep about track of a circle of about 200 people. After that, it's shorthand by pigeon-holing and eventually dehumanizing those outside the circle. A great effort is required to remember everyone's humanity and the value of each individual. Otherwise we become statistics. We need to value what others and what they do and hope they appreciate us. |
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MentoBuggah
Aloha
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 05:51:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Copyright law doesn't give a hoot if you share TAB -- or songs, or a book, or anything else you own-- among a few friends. Just like most cops will let you drive a few miles above the speed limit. So no one's gonna bust into you garage during a jam session.
I disagree. Maybe Michael Eisner wasn't being paranoid referring to the MPAA and RIAA as the Gay Mafia running him out of town. The RIAA has sued XM, Youtube users, and a lady in Tualatin, Oregon who doesn't even own a computer! |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 06:13:48 AM
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"Gay Mafia"???!!! On top of scam websites soliciting money for whoknowswhat???!!!
Great discussion, looove it. Pif (Mike) was *almost* right, we have heard *nearly* everything about this topic over the years, but this is wonderful new stuff.
...Reid (and that is my real name, not some internet handle that I hide behind)
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MentoBuggah
Aloha
22 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 08:32:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
"Gay Mafia"???!!! On top of scam websites soliciting money for whoknowswhat???!!!
Great discussion, looove it. Pif (Mike) was *almost* right, we have heard *nearly* everything about this topic over the years, but this is wonderful new stuff.
...Reid (and that is my real name, not some internet handle that I hide behind)
Not a new topic on other websites such as digg.com
Sad to say, Dancing Cats is on the anti-RIAA boycott list.
If you ever go through an identify theft, like I am now, you would be very careful about having a direct link to your real name. |
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 08:41:36 AM
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Aloha,
So if its all about money, then thats fine. So the bottom line is that if someone is making money on it then they should pay, if not then they shouldn't have too, correct?
On respect. - What greater respect is there for someone to play your song because they love it and are willing to learn it however way works for them (tab, listening whatever - it all sounds illegal from the argument above) and then to spend hours perfecting it and then to play it for their friends for Aloha only (that means love and for no money).
On someones comment on our selfish (I think the word they used was narcistic culture) and how people think they can take music without asking - I think was the argument. (As you can tell I don't spend a whole lot of time on here - I have to work and make money too, so I do understand the money argument.) Can't I use the same argument against someone who does not want to share their music with people who don't plan to make money using it?
BTW, I was on the Dominators site today for only the second time and finally spent enough time to figure out how to get to the tabs (which I still have not tried and don't know how to use) and noticed that Jay has asked him to remove his songs. My reaction to this is that I don't think I feel like supporting an artist who is not going to allow people to share his music - some of the music is not even his. Not sure I will be going to any Jake concerts or buy any of his stuff. Is there any harm in people like me trying to learn his arrangements of songs he plays. Like I said a lot of them are not even his.
Am I missing something here?
Aloha,
Hili. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 09:47:00 AM
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Hili,
On the narcissism point. A clarification. "Narcissistic entitlement," means expecting that you can get anything you want, petty much when you want it. I applied it to people who think they are entitled to anybody's music with no obligation, including not even asking for permission. Not wanting to share is not narcissism, by definition. There are other names for it, both complimentary and derogatory.
I will tell you why I don't give out my original compositions to just anyone who asks. I did that for a couple of years. Once I went to a coffee house performance and heard a guy play a song which he nicely credited to me. However, in my opinion, he played it in such a way that I had trouble identifying it, and, frankly, I did not like. Since then, a simmilar thing has occured twice more. On the one hand I'm flattered that people want to play my music. On the other hand, it pains me to here it butchered. T(hat may, indeed, be a form of narcissism.) So now, I tend not to give out my stuff unless someone learns it from me directly, or is willing to use a recording I made as a study tool. That's also why I don't want my stuff posted on public access sites. (This site is the exception.)
BTW, many of the posters on this topic pointed out that it is not only the $$, but the law involved in the discussion. |
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2006 : 2:11:01 PM
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RJS,
Whatever! I don't think you and I will ever agree and thats fine with me. As far as the law is concerned in reference to people like me trading, borrowing and using music for private use, (i.e. meaning I don't make money on it) - its one of those unenforcible laws. Frankly, in reference to private use (i.e. not the guys selling advertisments on their tab sites), I think its a stupid law, like so many laws we all break every day (i.e. going faster then we are suppose to, not reporting every single penny of that huge income you make playing/selling your music, not quite stopping completly at a stop sign, etc....). And no I'm not going to work to get it changed - I could care less, there are a lot of laws out there that should be changed, so what.
And if you want to punish people like me for using and trading lyrics and tab or whatever, have at it.
Now, on respect, do I not respect the song writer when I play their music without their permission? - I don't think so - I see it as just the absolute opposite, but if you think I am then - fine - we definitely disagree. Again I play for love only dude, I know this is a tough concept for you to get.
On people playing your music differently, Have you ever thought that maybe someone would play one of your songs different from the original and perhaps give you ideas on how to improve it or ideas on a new song, is it possible? Of course I'm not talking about the butchering you mentioned and even then there is always opportunity to learn. Or maybe it morphs to a totally different song? Is that a bad thing or a good thing? fyi, I always change songs to match my voice and my ability (which is not so good) to play it, in this case I still don't mean to dis the author.
Also have you ever thought that they might be doing the best that they can do? Dude - I think your atitude on this kind of sucks.
btw, I manage a group of engineers and when I give one of them an assignment, I usually have an idea of how it should be done, but it always amazes me the different ways that they come up with to solve problems sometimes better than I even ever imagined possible. So what I'm saying is that I think you should consider chilling and use these experiences to grow, improve, consider new angles, like I said - whatever.
Observation - You seem to be really strung out and a very unhappy person. And talk about being narcistic, you come off like a spoiled conceited kid.
Maybe you should just chill, relax, enjoy - and learn to be hawaiian - dude!
Ok so now the real important question - how many songs do you really have? And how much money do you really make at this? And who the heck are you anyway, dude? As if I care.
Aloha,
Hili
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