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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2007 : 10:11:55 AM
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As I was waiting for my plane to leave Hawaii yesterday, there was a trio playing in the airport, with Greg Sardinha on steel! Wow! The guy leads, sings and backs up the other two guys in the trio (I didn't ask their names, I'm afraid. I'm sure I would have recognized their names). Greg plays impeccably, no wrong notes, no wavering intonation. The group did swinging instrumentals of songs like "Swingtime in Honolulu", "Hapa Haole Hula Girl" "Maui Chimes" and "Spread a Little Aloha" . I got Greg to sign my uke. Woohoo!
Jesse Tinsley |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 10:14:52 AM
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OK, time for my stupid beginner's question (not my first one, by a long shot). B11 has the standard chord triad structure on the bottom 3 strings (e.g., GBD) and the standard triad chord structure on the top 3 strings, except displaced 2 frets with relation to the bottom 3. So, for instance, you get GBDFAC (lo to hi)on the 8th fret, DF#ACEG on the third, etc. Given that "How'd Ya Do" is almost always played in Atta's C (CGEGCE) on an acoustic guitar in slack key, how is B11 so easy to play it, especially since the GCE inversion occurs in such tough places on slants from the 8th through 12 frets in B11? I understand why it would be real hard in C6. I know that slack key is sorta different than steel, but when I have heard lots of slack key "How'd Ya Do" pa`ani in Atta's C, they all had the melody included very nicely (which I always think is quintessential for a steel solo - I may be wrong, and have been - once, a long time ago :-) Are you really learning B11 for that one song? Gee, why not just change out a few strings, or put them on another guitar, and play it in Atta's C, which is just a few strings different than C6 - which you know well? It is really simple to grok that tuning.
...Reid |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 12:57:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
OK, time for my stupid beginner's question (not my first one, by a long shot). B11 has the standard chord triad structure on the bottom 3 strings (e.g., GBD) and the standard triad chord structure on the top 3 strings, except displaced 2 frets with relation to the bottom 3. So, for instance, you get GBDFAC (lo to hi)on the 8th fret, DF#ACEG on the third, etc. Given that "How'd Ya Do" is almost always played in Atta's C (CGEGCE) on an acoustic guitar in slack key, how is B11 so easy to play it, especially since the GCE inversion occurs in such tough places on slants from the 8th through 12 frets in B11? I understand why it would be real hard in C6. I know that slack key is sorta different than steel, but when I have heard lots of slack key "How'd Ya Do" pa`ani in Atta's C, they all had the melody included very nicely (which I always think is quintessential for a steel solo - I may be wrong, and have been - once, a long time ago :-) Are you really learning B11 for that one song? Gee, why not just change out a few strings, or put them on another guitar, and play it in Atta's C, which is just a few strings different than C6 - which you know well? It is really simple to grok that tuning.
...Reid
ok.... Here goes... The top 4 strings of the B11 are (from bottom to top) F# A C# E, an A6 chord, so "How'd Ya Do" is played in A with the main phrase at the 5th fret, because the progresion is II/V/, etc. I have Jerry Byrd doing it in A on 2 recordings, one from a CD of his that says Atta Isaacs is playing guitar, and one with Hue Ohana. They both sound suspiciously the same (hmmm). He plays it in A, and then they move to D for the guitar break and back to A for the end. As far as B11, I'm learning "In a Little Hula Heaven" from the playing of Alan Akaka. Then, moving the 5th string from D# to E puts the top 7 strings into A6. The structure of the top 3 strings is the same as Taro Patch, so that's where I'm learning to play "Maui Chimes" and other old tunes. Whew!
For Jesse: It blew me away when I ran into Greg & company at the airport as well. He is responsible for the "Hawaiian Steel" CD's (4 of them), and he plays on all 4, especially the last one. |
keaka |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 02:21:59 AM
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OK, Jack. I assumed that you would play it in C, as slack key players do.
I guess I am too new to understand how something played in A might sound well with guitarists or vocalists playing or singing in the usual keys of C, F, D or G - unless the other players simply do the usual backing rhythm playing and the piece is not a true duet/trio/quartet.
And, I didn't understand that you are playing an 8 string (you did mention 7 strings, right?) which gives you more string retuning opportunities.
In addition, it became apparent to me, from my own examples, that B11 has the advantage that the "stacked" chord triads are the IV chord on top of the V chord of every key, albeit in a different octave. And it is a "half-strumming" tuning. Could make some pieces easier because of that.
The other topic:
Sarah and I heard, and talked to, Greg Sardinha at Duke's several years ago and, boy, was he impressive. He backed, filled, and soloed wonderfully, with Ku`uipo. His eyes would roll up in his head (actually) and you just knew he was hearing magic music in his head which came out of his hands, and he hardly ever looked at his instrument. The guitar was a small portable electric that fit into a similarly small attache case. But he got loads out of it. We talked as he left and he was a very pleasant and fluent guy. Very admirable, and for my money, one of the top half-dozen steel players.
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 06/20/2007 02:26:09 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 08:35:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
OK, Jack. I assumed that you would play it in C, as slack key players do.
I guess I am too new to understand how something played in A might sound well with guitarists or vocalists playing or singing in the usual keys of C, F, D or G - unless the other players simply do the usual backing rhythm playing and the piece is not a true duet/trio/quartet.
And, I didn't understand that you are playing an 8 string (you did mention 7 strings, right?) which gives you more string retuning opportunities.
In addition, it became apparent to me, from my own examples, that B11 has the advantage that the "stacked" chord triads are the IV chord on top of the V chord of every key, albeit in a different octave. And it is a "half-strumming" tuning. Could make some pieces easier because of that.
The other topic:
Sarah and I heard, and talked to, Greg Sardinha at Duke's several years ago and, boy, was he impressive. He backed, filled, and soloed wonderfully, with Ku`uipo. His eyes would roll up in his head (actually) and you just knew he was hearing magic music in his head which came out of his hands, and he hardly ever looked at his instrument. The guitar was a small portable electric that fit into a similarly small attache case. But he got loads out of it. We talked as he left and he was a very pleasant and fluent guy. Very admirable, and for my money, one of the top half-dozen steel players.
...Reid
Actually, I play both 6 & 8 string steels, and I use a C13 on both. The 6 is (bottom to top) Bb E G A C E, and the 8 is Bb C E G A C E G, so I've added a C on the 7th string and a G on the top. As I've said before, I like the Bb because Bb-E-G is a diminshed chord. I'm a lot jazzier on the 8 because I can get octaves and another inversion without slanting, and there's more notes avaliable to play. I get most of the same effects with slants on the 6; for instance, playing the 7th fret on the 1st & 2nd strings, and the 6th fret on the 4th gives me an A7, which is the II chord for G, which is there at the 7th fret, etc, etc.... |
keaka |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 2:16:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by slipry1
quote:
Originally posted by Reid
OK, Jack. I assumed that you would play it in C, as slack key players do.
I guess I am too new to understand how something played in A might sound well with guitarists or vocalists playing or singing in the usual keys of C, F, D or G - unless the other players simply do the usual backing rhythm playing and the piece is not a true duet/trio/quartet.
And, I didn't understand that you are playing an 8 string (you did mention 7 strings, right?) which gives you more string retuning opportunities.
In addition, it became apparent to me, from my own examples, that B11 has the advantage that the "stacked" chord triads are the IV chord on top of the V chord of every key, albeit in a different octave. And it is a "half-strumming" tuning. Could make some pieces easier because of that.
The other topic:
Sarah and I heard, and talked to, Greg Sardinha at Duke's several years ago and, boy, was he impressive. He backed, filled, and soloed wonderfully, with Ku`uipo. His eyes would roll up in his head (actually) and you just knew he was hearing magic music in his head which came out of his hands, and he hardly ever looked at his instrument. The guitar was a small portable electric that fit into a similarly small attache case. But he got loads out of it. We talked as he left and he was a very pleasant and fluent guy. Very admirable, and for my money, one of the top half-dozen steel players.
...Reid
Actually, I play both 6 & 8 string steels, and I use a C13 on both. The 6 is (bottom to top) Bb E G A C E, and the 8 is Bb C E G A C E G, so I've added a C on the 7th string and a G on the top. As I've said before, I like the Bb because Bb-E-G is a diminshed chord. I'm a lot jazzier on the 8 because I can get octaves and another inversion without slanting, and there's more notes avaliable to play. I get most of the same effects with slants on the 6; for instance, playing the 7th fret on the 1st & 2nd strings, and the 6th fret on the 4th gives me an A7, which is the II chord for G, which is there at the 7th fret, etc, etc....
ok. wrt the key: I'm home now, listening to "The Gabby Pahinui Hawaiian Band V2". He plays How'd Ya Do in F!!!! |
keaka |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 2:41:08 PM
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Jack, that makes sense to me. F is only one flat away from C and is vocally reasonable (for males). And can be easily played in any C tuning, like C Mauna Loa (which I bet Gabby was in - please confirm).
Actually, I can't figure out why A is good for it. Again,unless it is a totally divorced solo.
...Reid |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 11:10:04 PM
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| Jerry Byrd did it in "A" so he could use the natural chordal harmonics of the B11. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 02:03:27 AM
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Thanks Kory, you confirm my suspicion (since I have never actually heard it) that it was a lead solo, so he didn't have to take into consideration anything else than the tuning that he found easiest for it, and the tuning determined the key. That's a common and sensible approach, especially for Hawaiian music.
...Reid |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 05:23:22 AM
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"...natural chordal harmonics of the B11...F is only one flat away from C...that B11 has the advantage that the "stacked" chord triads are the IV chord...the 6th fret on the 4th gives me an A7, which is the II chord for G..."
I like to play the steel guitar, too, but why does this thread make my brain hurt?
Jesse Tinsley |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 05:38:26 AM
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Jesse, your brain hurts because you are a natural musician, with a long history of playing music, and don't need to analyze things to come up to speed. So, this stuff is (at least) meaningless and unnecessary for you. I, on the other hand, am way behind the curve, both in terms of time and talent and training, so I need to intellectually understand what I am doing in order to put it into practice, because that is the only tool I currently have.
BTW, Lorene Ruymar's book, and DVD set, teaching steel guitar, which I am using, is actually a treatise in music theory as applied to the steel and the Amaj tuning. It is intended for people (kids mostly) starting with no background whatsoever. That's me. If she thinks that theoretic principles combined with visual display of the techniques that use those principles is a good way to teach the steel, that is good enough for me. Your head would pop off if you read her book. Have pity.
...Reid |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 06:00:42 AM
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I was just joking about brain pain, but you get the joke.
I believe that playing the steel guitar requires your brain to do rapid fire mathematical computations like "I need the 3rd and root of the IV chord, then slide the third flat into a minor chord" or "I need diminish the I chord, so I need to find the 3rd and the 5th and flat them together", so I'm going to find I don't do that easily. I'm not a "natural" musician, just one who's habituated to certain visual and aural clues about what key, chord and note I'm playing and the best steel guitar tunings aren't intuitive, they're based on mathematics. To overcome my lack of computer-like computation and recall, right now I am just trying to memorize some songs in common keys and then using that to expand my base of knowledge to the point where SOMETHING becomes instinctive. I am in awe for someone who can skip to different tunings and make the calculations necessary to transpose the strings inside the mind's computer to begin playing without pause.
I do understand the conversation going on here, but I'm still taking baby steps, mainly memorizing vamps and playing simple single string melodies.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 06:42:13 AM
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Jesse,
"but I'm still taking baby steps, mainly memorizing vamps and playing simple single string melodies." is exactly what I am doing, too. However, coming from a slack key background (hack that I was), I look for certain things automatically to orient myself in these new tunings. Where are the 6ths? (They can be found as straights in C6 which is wonderful, because I am still lousy at slants). Where are the 3rds? Where are the I, II7, IV, V7 chords for C, G, F, D. I don't particularly like the sounds of the lower notes on the first string, so I find the notes on the fatter strings up farther toward the bridge, like using the 6 to 7th fret F# to G slide instead of the first string 2nd to 3rd fret slide. I used Kalena Kai as a way to get get familiar with D7-G vamps, because that's all Kalena Kai is. I was surprised that most steel examples of vamps give lots of notes to the V7 measure(s) but only one sustained note to the ending I measure, so I found all the variations that I used (19) on, for instance, the G measure when playing slack key, on the 7th fret, in C6, and a few other frets. I used Uncle Ray's, and Ozzie's, parallel 6th runs in G, transposed, to find them in C6. I am practicing the vamps and licks given in the C6 resource links either Jack or Gary provided. I am reading through Lorene's book, and watching her, to broaden my ability to find things - like (stupid me) I never realized that the 3rds and tonics, reversed, give 6ths. WOW! Thanks, Lorene. So now I find B and look for the easiest G to get the usual slack key ending 6th run, for instance. I also try to slide as much as I can - this is a slide guitar, right? so, I don't particularly like or use individual note picking, if I can help it. There are lots of things like that that I am using to struggle through to something that sounds good. I am not like you in that I don't have many aural or visual clues to go by, so I gotta start with my brain and puzzle it out and write it down - in standard notation, now, by the way - Lorene insists on it, and it helps, actually. Then I write out the tab that reflects my particular string and fret choices for that note sequence. It sounds like work, and it is, but it is fun, too. I wouldn't do it if it weren't fun. Then, every few days, Sarah will play something for me, and I will try to find decent fills and harmonies on the fly. I succeed about 2/3s of the time, which makes us both happy.
...Reid |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 09:34:37 AM
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| As a non musician, just someone who likes to listen to steel guitar, and as the person who started the thread in the first place, I've been eavesdropping on these last few posts. All I can say is WOW. I had no idea at all in what it took to play and understand the steel guitar. It looks so easy and sounds so smooth and effortless when I listen to it. My hats off to all you guys. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:39:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapakid
I was just joking about brain pain, but you get the joke.
I believe that playing the steel guitar requires your brain to do rapid fire mathematical computations like "I need the 3rd and root of the IV chord, then slide the third flat into a minor chord" or "I need diminish the I chord, so I need to find the 3rd and the 5th and flat them together", so I'm going to find I don't do that easily. I'm not a "natural" musician, just one who's habituated to certain visual and aural clues about what key, chord and note I'm playing and the best steel guitar tunings aren't intuitive, they're based on mathematics. To overcome my lack of computer-like computation and recall, right now I am just trying to memorize some songs in common keys and then using that to expand my base of knowledge to the point where SOMETHING becomes instinctive. I am in awe for someone who can skip to different tunings and make the calculations necessary to transpose the strings inside the mind's computer to begin playing without pause.
I do understand the conversation going on here, but I'm still taking baby steps, mainly memorizing vamps and playing simple single string melodies.
Jesse Tinsley
Hey, Jesse. It all happens too fast to think about. When I play, I use my right brain to find the "pockets" and patterns to play in. As I develop my playing, of course I spend time thinking about "what it all means", and Lord knows, I've spent a lot of time on Taropatch blabbering about tunings and theory. When I'm playing, I really am not thinking "Oh - I need a 3rd & a flat 7th here"; my eye & hand just find it. AS Led says, "Jes' press". In C6th based tunings, I know where majors, minors, 6th and diminished chords lie, so I gravitate towards them at the right time. This is REALLY useful when someone throws a tune at you that you don't know, at least not very well. You're starting the right way, though. Take something you know and play with it. I've discovered some wonderful stuff that way. You also devlop a bag of "licks" (musical phrases) that you can drop into other tunes. I get most of my epiphanies by screwing around at home or at the kanekapilas and jams where the pressure is off. I'll also hear something on a CD, figure out the key and try to find it on my steel. I may not find the lick, but often I'll find another that works just fine. I hope to see you around here soon. Any chance??? |
keaka |
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