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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
 Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:43:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
Jesse, your brain hurts because you are a natural musician, with a long history of playing music, and don't need to analyze things to come up to speed. So, this stuff is (at least) meaningless and unnecessary for you. I, on the other hand, am way behind the curve, both in terms of time and talent and training, so I need to intellectually understand what I am doing in order to put it into practice, because that is the only tool I currently have.
BTW, Lorene Ruymar's book, and DVD set, teaching steel guitar, which I am using, is actually a treatise in music theory as applied to the steel and the Amaj tuning. It is intended for people (kids mostly) starting with no background whatsoever. That's me. If she thinks that theoretic principles combined with visual display of the techniques that use those principles is a good way to teach the steel, that is good enough for me. Your head would pop off if you read her book. Have pity.
...Reid
She got that from Jerry Byrd. She was one of his students. I just picked up his method (a loose leaf binder and 2 CD's). WOW! It costs $80 plus postage on e-bay. There's stuff in A, E B11 and C6. Get it! BTW, I have somewhat of an edge, since I already play jazz piano. |
keaka |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 5:47:10 PM
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| I'm glad you all can just do what you do. I studied with JB for almost 9 mos before he got sick and I was finding it hard to do. Jerry did encourage me and compliment me. but his advice was to not carry over any guitar mentality when playing the steel. I jam with slipry and he is one fine steel player. He picks up songs real fast and has great timing. I hope someday to play the steel well too. I suggest getting as many rercordings of different players as possible. For example: JB, Greg Sardinha, Alan Akaka,Barney Isaacs, feets and so on. There are many recording repros of the groups from the thirties. They blow me away because its just like they played everything in 8/4 time. But all you guys on this forum blow me away with your knowledge and desire to play music. E holomua 'oukou i ka lanakila. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 07:34:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
I'm glad you all can just do what you do. I studied with JB for almost 9 mos before he got sick and I was finding it hard to do. Jerry did encourage me and compliment me. but his advice was to not carry over any guitar mentality when playing the steel. I jam with slipry and he is one fine steel player. He picks up songs real fast and has great timing. I hope someday to play the steel well too. I suggest getting as many rercordings of different players as possible. For example: JB, Greg Sardinha, Alan Akaka,Barney Isaacs, feets and so on. There are many recording repros of the groups from the thirties. They blow me away because its just like they played everything in 8/4 time. But all you guys on this forum blow me away with your knowledge and desire to play music. E holomua 'oukou i ka lanakila.
Mahalo, nui, Bra! You also are one fine player. |
keaka |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 07:57:54 AM
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Al, why not carry over any "guitar mentality" when playing steel? I understand that there is no need to play bass or rhythm (actually, that would sound absurd to me). But, still, there are plenty of recognizable V7-I, or ii7-V7-I vamps (e.g., Alan Akaka has a very sweet simple on in C7->F which I can hammer on the starting note, and I have found the D7-G equivalent). Also, there are plenty of parallel 6th runs on steel, just as in slack key. I also like my transposed slack key versions of the I measure much more than most of the simple single notes given in all the tabbed examples.
I *do* follow JB's example of (paraphrase): thinking of playing the melody as a tapestry and the steel's notes as a thread that is never broken. I guess that's where the p`tah comes in, as described in one of his writings (plucking the string on an intermediate note just before you hit the target) . So, in that sense, it is different from guitar. But what else should be different from guitar?
...Reid |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 6:23:10 PM
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| For one you play horizontal the idea of slide is just that most notes you slide into or out of. No frets to give you stop go stop go in a melody line. Also picking the strings was taught to me " its like twisting off a bottle cap with fingers and thumb acting just like that" you don't do that on a guitar. There attack angles must be close and short. Also the picking hand usually muffles the strings when making a long slide. The bar is not picked up and put down between notes Even the Ptah move is done from string to string without lifting. My guitar playing habits at first were a dtriment. I am only talking about physical technique. Not musical knowledge as far as chord building and timing and so forth. Jerry would scold me all the time. But he was one great teacher and musician. He had many beautiful stories to tell. I miss him a lot. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 10:09:34 PM
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I played Bluegrass Dobro in "high bass G" or GBDGBD. I played ki ho'alu first, so the higher strings were familiar. I'm exploring C6 and I use a Shubb bar, a roundnose Stevens type, Slipry1 calls it "training wheels". I'll probably spring for a bullet some time. I tell my slack key students that any and all music they play is money in their musical bank. I've made up guitar tunes with other instruments in mind (Nupepa Slack Key). I always try to "hear" other instruments when I play (they help drown out the mean little voices in my head, lol).
Jesse, the B11 factoid was from Jack. I think that Alan Akaka showed him how to change one string in the tuning to make it happen. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 04:42:03 AM
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Thanks, Al. I understand what you are getting at. Very helpful notions, and the continuity thing was something that was puzzling me. The tabs notate one thing and the things I hear on the CDs are totally different.
Actually, I have been really trying hard not to chose notes horizontally and to build continuity and slide into notes. Except for, perhaps, the ending I chord of a vamp (for instance, the G at the 7th fret - but I don't think the pros chose any better notes than I do for that measure). And I do try to do the p`tah when going from string to string, but I am just not good at anything yet.
The picking tip is one that I have never heard, and it I will really try to do it. The hand damping on a long slide is new, too - I always have left it open, and, in fact, tried to make the long slide loud. Is that a matter of taste?
Anther thing I don't think I made clear yet is that everything I play, apart from the teaching examples, are my own arrangements of oldish Hawaiian songs. I never play Hapa Haole, and I never play anything that is not Hawaiian. My goal is strictly to play with Sarah. Sarah has never played a song that had English lyrics and we are going to keep it that way (mostly). I never want to be a solo steel player, just as I never considered myself a "guitarist" or a "musician" - I was a "slack key guitar player", if not a good one.
Any more tips and techniques?
Kory - I, too, use a Shubb SP2 predominately. I have a bullet (with the hollow back end) and try it occasionally, but my fingers cramp up like mad. One thing I do like about the bullet is that it is real easy to stop two adjacent strings with the nose. I just think it is a matter of time and muscle/tendon/ligament/reflex build-up. But, one reason I am playing the steel is that the flesh is weak, and stopped my slack key playing. The steel is so ergonomically friendly for me. I won't do anything that screws up my hands an wrists again, even if other players laugh at me for what I do. We will see.
...Reid |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 07:28:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
Thanks, Al. I understand what you are getting at. Very helpful notions, and the continuity thing was something that was puzzling me. The tabs notate one thing and the things I hear on the CDs are totally different.
Actually, I have been really trying hard not to chose notes horizontally and to build continuity and slide into notes. Except for, perhaps, the ending I chord of a vamp (for instance, the G at the 7th fret - but I don't think the pros chose any better notes than I do for that measure). And I do try to do the p`tah when going from string to string, but I am just not good at anything yet.
The picking tip is one that I have never heard, and it I will really try to do it. The hand damping on a long slide is new, too - I always have left it open, and, in fact, tried to make the long slide loud. Is that a matter of taste?
Anther thing I don't think I made clear yet is that everything I play, apart from the teaching examples, are my own arrangements of oldish Hawaiian songs. I never play Hapa Haole, and I never play anything that is not Hawaiian. My goal is strictly to play with Sarah. Sarah has never played a song that had English lyrics and we are going to keep it that way (mostly). I never want to be a solo steel player, just as I never considered myself a "guitarist" or a "musician" - I was a "slack key guitar player", if not a good one.
Any more tips and techniques?
Kory - I, too, use a Shubb SP2 predominately. I have a bullet (with the hollow back end) and try it occasionally, but my fingers cramp up like mad. One thing I do like about the bullet is that it is real easy to stop two adjacent strings with the nose. I just think it is a matter of time and muscle/tendon/ligament/reflex build-up. But, one reason I am playing the steel is that the flesh is weak, and stopped my slack key playing. The steel is so ergonomically friendly for me. I won't do anything that screws up my hands an wrists again, even if other players laugh at me for what I do. We will see.
...Reid
One of the primary differences between bluegrass dobroists and steel guitarists has to do with lifting the steel off of the strings. Damping notes can be done one of 2 ways. The bluegrass way, and hence the use of the Stevens steel, is to lift the bar from the strings, and, because the left hand is resting on the strings, it damps the note(s). If you try to do this with a bullet bar, your hand will get very tired and cramp up. The second way, used by country, western swing and Hawaiian players is to almost never lift the steel from the strings. Damping is achieved by the heel of the right hand. Since the steel is resting on the strings, there is no need to apply a lot of pressure - only what is required to keep the steel at the right location. The right hand gets a little tricky because you want to damp after every note for single note runs, or is all 'mooshes" together. The right hand kind of bounces along - it's really hard to describe. All of the above is called "blocking" - either left or right hand. |
keaka |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 08:07:07 AM
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| One hard thing I practice is sliding from one note to the next and changing strings too. For one example : string one and two from fret 10 to fret eight two beeats each fret then skip back to fret 10string 2 and 3 and slide to fret 8 wthout damping anything and keep the transitions smooth and musical. Then skip to fret 3 string 1 and 2 2 beats and then fret 3 string 2 and 3 for four beats. This is just an excercise line to get the bar moving. Later you add slants to the melody to get different chords.And of course you add blocking and vibrato where applicable. This kind of thng adds years to my age and I will bevery very old by thetime I can play like some of theother steelers inthe world. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 09:22:43 AM
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Al, to be an artist, you gotta suffer. Reid, I have to watch my wrists--as a window washer, I'm a prime candidate for carple tunnel syndrome. One of my customers is a chiropractor and I have him adjust my wrists every 4-6 weeks. It makes all the difference! Whatever you're up against, music can only help. As my Dad used to say,"Play it clean and don't hurt yourself." John Har(t)ford (how's that Jack?) said, "Style is based on limitation."
Never let the uneducated, incurious, and ignorant (mostly through no fault of their own) stifle you. |
Edited by - thumbstruck on 06/24/2007 09:25:44 AM |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 8:30:27 PM
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| E Kory its all good. I just getting back to the kika kila beacause Jack is an inspiration. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 02:43:53 AM
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Jack, as a beginner, I am doing both kinds of damping, both badly. I try to think about it and do the "right thing", but the right thing isn't instinctive yet. I do damp with the left (bar) hand most times, but, also, I flip my picking hand and damp with a kind of gentle karate chop - that is, with the knife edge below my little finger. Right now, it is kind of uncontrollable, but I'll work on that right hand more. Thanks. I think that the bullet just cramps my hand generally, though, because it is all so new to me.
All this info is really helpful guys. Nobody really ever talks about these nitty-gritty things elsewhere. I also plan to get some hands-on tuition, if I can, *after* I become comfortable with where everything is on the fretboard and I have the basic skills down. It turns out that Stacy Phillips lives 20 minutes away from me and I'll ask him if he can take me on for some *pointed* classes. That is, I want to direct him to teach me what I want to learn. (I did that with Taiji and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.) I know he is mostly known as a Dobro player, but he has a kind of pseudo-Hawaiian group he gigs with. All this will be sometime in the Fall, because I won't be ready until then - I want to finish Lorene's stuff first. Maybe he'll just ignore me, who knows, but I'll try.
...Reid
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 05:36:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
Jack, as a beginner, I am doing both kinds of damping, both badly. I try to think about it and do the "right thing", but the right thing isn't instinctive yet. I do damp with the left (bar) hand most times, but, also, I flip my picking hand and damp with a kind of gentle karate chop - that is, with the knife edge below my little finger. Right now, it is kind of uncontrollable, but I'll work on that right hand more. Thanks. I think that the bullet just cramps my hand generally, though, because it is all so new to me.
All this info is really helpful guys. Nobody really ever talks about these nitty-gritty things elsewhere. I also plan to get some hands-on tuition, if I can, *after* I become comfortable with where everything is on the fretboard and I have the basic skills down. It turns out that Stacy Phillips lives 20 minutes away from me and I'll ask him if he can take me on for some *pointed* classes. That is, I want to direct him to teach me what I want to learn. (I did that with Taiji and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.) I know he is mostly known as a Dobro player, but he has a kind of pseudo-Hawaiian group he gigs with. All this will be sometime in the Fall, because I won't be ready until then - I want to finish Lorene's stuff first. Maybe he'll just ignore me, who knows, but I'll try.
...Reid
Keep at it. Remember - to get it smooth, you have to damp with your right hand and "no lift da bah". Also, your index finger should be on top of the bar, your thumb in front, not touching strings, and your middle finger behind, providing the push going up the neck (thumb push on the way down). Index finger is the stabilizer. notice - no forceful grabbing of the bar. I sometimes counter screwups by quickly damping with my left thumb. Good luck with Stacy and remember - smooth is not what a bluegrass dobroist is aiming at. Fast is everything to them (no criticism intended). |
keaka |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 07:03:11 AM
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Jack, I will practice that as soon as I log off.
Just a kind of laugh: maybe you have gotten the idea of what kind of guy I am by now. So, I emailed Stacy this morning and I told him exactly what I want, and I told him I don't want to do anything like what he does musically. Yuk, yuk. I told him I expected him to show me just what I want to know - Hawaiian technique unlike the Sol Ho`opi`i kind. Hey, I'm the (potential) customer, right? I got quite a kick out of doing that, but it is also the plain, simple truth. Teachers often tell you what you don't need or want to know. Like Physicians, they get into a kind of groove and have a prepared spiel and thought process that they inflict on you. But Stacy has a kind of pseudo-Hawaiian group, as I said before, and I threw in some semi-intimidating personal history that might capture his interest. So, maybe he will respond, maybe he won't. I have you guys, right? (at least until I honk you off :-)
Thanks again,
Reid |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 07:42:24 AM
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| E no get mad but...Tai chi is like music, is like learning to walk and so forth. Certain aspects must be mastered before moving on. Otherwise bad habits, poor posture, and ineffective attempts at doing things will become a part of one's repertoire and excellence in execution will be unreachable. Tai Chi has no short cuts and one must go through the frustrating process of Practice, practice, practice. Before one achieves success one must fail thousands of times. It is usually a very personal journey and the result is that one learns about oneself in a deeply honest way. When one learns their personal limits only then are they able to expand the envelope and achieve things that lie beyond their wildest dreams. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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