| Author |
 Topic  |
|
alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2007 : 03:58:11 AM
|
Aloha kakahiaka (my time) kakou. I just wanted to tell you all something:
I think some of you may already know that I tend to be picky about pronouncing foreign words correctly. Thus, I always say "Ha-vi-ee" and "oo-coo-leh-leh" wherever I am.
But, that doesn't always get the same type of response from others. For example, sometimes I say, "You know what my favorite vacation spot is? Ha-vi-ee!" Some people over here say, "Oh, I want to go there," while others are like, "Where's that?" So then I have to say "Ha-wi-ee) instead. I also get mixed responses when I say something like, "I think the oo-koo-leh-leh would be fun to learn." Some people say, "Oh, I know," and others go, "What's that?" Thus I have to say it the way people over here would understand it.
Does the same type of thing happen to other members who are mainlanders? I'm interested to find out.
Mahalo,
'Alika
|
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
|
|
da_joka
Lokahi
361 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 04:50:02 AM
|
Aloha kakahiaka 'Alika,
Stay morning time fo me too up hea in Kaleponi. Anyways, ya, normally i like fo talk in pidgin, but ova hea fo shua no can, cuz nobody goin undastand. Dass true. My students (i stay one college teacher) say i talk funny sometimes. no can help eh?
Da odda week, wen i still was trying fo find one ukulele up hea, I went to da local music store. Da guy wen ask me wat I was looking fo and I wen say "u-ku-le-le". He looked at me and said "Huh?" I had fo repeat myself couple of times befo he finally undastood. I wasn't goin say it like da haole way yu-ku-lei-lee o someting liddat eddah.
Anyways, you not alone. One odda word liddat is ... karaoke. How hard is it fo say dat, ka-ra-o-ke. Not ka-ree-o-kee. sigh.
shootz, dajoka |
If can, can. If no can, no can. |
 |
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 05:16:44 AM
|
Jus press.
Don't ever compormise the integrity of the `olelo. You say it the right way, somebody gonna learn em da right way. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 06:05:09 AM
|
Ukulele surprises more people for me, but then I rarely pronounce Hawaii correctly.
When I was there (50-68)the wrong pronuciation was used as often as the correct one, so it is not a big deal for me either way.
I usually accomodate the uninitiated.
|
Bob |
|
|
|
Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 06:21:40 AM
|
| An how many peopo say SOY SAUCE in stead SHOYU? |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
|
|
|
Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 06:23:06 AM
|
You just say it how you say it. Not everyone in the world talks the same, so they might not understand at first, but it's not a big deal. You can make yourself understood with a bit of effort. Sometimes Americans don't understand the way I pronounce things either (although some will concede that I speak 'pretty good English for a foreigner').
English has many words imported from other languages - it's not realistic to expect people to retain the other-language pronunciation as well, even though it might be correct. Most English speakers don't for instance pronounce French words like aggrandisement or lingerie 'correctly' (i.e. the French way) for instance.
If you're comfortable pronouncing the words the 'correct' way, then go ahead. But you'll have to expect people not to understand you sometimes. |
|
|
|
cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 06:42:50 AM
|
| I live in California, land of mispronounced Spanish place names. (When was the last time you heard someone pronounce "Los Angeles" correctly?) My approach has always been that if I'm around someone who speaks Spanish I'll make an effort to pronounce them correctly. But since the bastardized pronunciations are the ones that have long since been adopted by the majority of the world there's really no point in try to swim upstream (more like up the waterfall) the rest of the time. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
|
|
|
Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 06:46:12 AM
|
A good example from the world I work in:
Most American programmers pronounce Linux as Linn-nux
but it is a proper name and is correctly pronounced Leen-nooks
(where the i takes an ee sound and u takes an oo sound)
Linus Torvalds (the developer and the one who named it) even
has a short recording of the correct way to pronounce it
distributed on the web, but most American programmers remain
ignorant and still sound it incorrectly.
|
Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
|
|
|
alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 07:53:23 AM
|
I know people may not understand me, I've been in situations where that has occurred. However, I don't mind saying all those words the American way if they don't know what I mean when I say them the Hawaiian way first.
Oh, this just reminded me of something: I was talking on the phone with Alana (hawaiianmusiclover06 on here) and someone else I think, and I said something about Honolulu. However, I accidentally pronounced it as if it was spelled Hanalulu like everyone over here does. Then I had to stop mid-sentence and cry out, "Oh my gosh! I'm so embarrassed!" And Alana was like, "Whoooooooooa!" I'll never forget that at all. E kala mai, e Alana. I know the past is forgotten, but I just had to appologize once again.
'Alika |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 08:04:07 AM
|
I remember one trip to O`ahu, our tour guide was teaching us the proper pronunciation of place names, such as Kalakaua Blvd., etc. He told me he had one haole guest one time who was very proud of being able to properly pronounce Hawaiian place names. He told the guide he wanted to go surfing at the Pee-peh-lee-nay on north shore. That tour guide ruined Paul and I...now we call it Pee-peh-lee-nay just to remember the joke our tour guide told us.
At least the haole was trying to do things right. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 08:56:01 AM
|
Like Craig, I live in a state that habitually messes up its place names. F'rinstance, the correct local pronunciation of "Cape Blanco" (from the Spanish, 'natch) is "Cape Blank-oh. Rhymes with "Spank.)
Heck, the correct local pronuciation of Oregon is "Ory-gun."
A couple of years ago, Keola corrected me for mispronouncing "Paniolo" -- I slipped and used the Ameriacan "a" - as in "can." But I had to laugh; here he was correcting me for msipronouncing the way Hawaiians mangled the Spanish word "espaniolo!" Sheesh.
All of which is to say: don't sweat it. If you are trying to speak Hawaiian (or Portugese, or French, or, like Trev, the Queen's English) yes, by all means make the effort to say it properly. Otherwise, the purpose of communication is... communication.
Maybe a bigger question to ask is whether it is OK to try to sound like a local when you're not?
I grew up in Southern California with a few pidgin words and phrases in my vocabulary courtesy of surfer slang. Even so, in the past I have been gently chided more than once by local friends that it wasn't cool to use pidgin. So I try to be sensitive to my Hawaiian friends (and, maybe more important, I try not to make a fool out of myself.)
Here on the TaroPatch, I notice lots of folks who did not grow up in Hawaii or have Hawaiian roots writing in what to me is roughly the equivalent of Blackface. I mean, seriously, would anybody post "Well, boss, I 'spect I gwine tote my geetar to the watty-melon patch dis moanin'..." on a Blues message board????
If you've spent maybe three weeks in Scotland as a tourist, is it OK to be writing in Plaidface "aboot da wee beasties??" Since I play Applachian dulcimer, can I get away talking like a cartoon hillbilly??
Am I the only one who finds this unsettling? I love to hear from some of our Hawaiian members about this.
Mark
|
Edited by - Mark on 07/18/2007 09:08:28 AM |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 09:12:16 AM
|
Point well made, Mark. Duly chastised.
But...""Well, boss, I 'spect I gwine tote my geetar to the watty-melon patch dis moanin'..." ....isn't that the way normal people talk? Sounds just like me....... |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 07/18/2007 09:15:29 AM |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 09:26:28 AM
|
English has dumb rules..... did you ever listen to the commedian Gallgher expound upon the subject:
why is one -- pronounced "wun" -- where does the "w" sound come from?
women: where do they get the short i sound (wi-men)
laugh -- how they get ff out of that?
notion -- how they get sh out of "ti"
He said take the word: ghoti. How should that be pronounced? gh - F like laugh; o = short i sound like the "o" in women; ti = sh like the ti in notion. Put them together -- should be pronounced as FISH. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 09:51:47 AM
|
Mark wrote something worth thinking about 
Now for some rambling...
I heard Howie Mandel once say that he saw an oo-haw-ool truck go by (u-haul) when he was in Hawaii.
I almost missed that pipeline joke--and I have surfed there. Had I not known the area the joke would have zipped right over my head. |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 07/18/2007 10:07:32 AM |
|
|
|
Momi
Lokahi
402 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 11:55:32 AM
|
I am not of Hawaiian extraction, but I was born and raised in the Islands and can speak pidgin. I think it is a very transactional language, meaning that I lapse into it if I hear someone else speaking it. Before I got tapped into the Hawaiian scene in Seattle, I could go months without hearing or speaking pidgin, but as soon as I got in line at Hawaiian Airlines on a Hawaii-bound flight, I'd hear it and speak it.
I think pidgin is the language of belonging if you're talking story in Hawai`i or about Hawai`i. I am not offended by someone not from the Islands speaking pidgin to me UNLESS I feel as though someone is talking down to me. I think the best "non-native" speaker of pidgin I've ever met is Thumbstruck - I still don't know how he manages to do it.
I have warned Retro to be careful where and how he speaks pidgin when we are in the Islands because it can get you a black eye (literally and figuratively) in short order. (But ask him about his "why, yes, I do like beef" routine sometime.) Plus, speaking pidgin goes contrary to all his years of radio training. But he is a natural mimic, and sometimes it will come out anyway.
There is an older Hawaiian gentleman in town whose opinions I respect greatly who speaks with a little Island lilt, but who does not like to hear "broad" pidgin - it goes contrary to what he learned. If I forget and lapse into broad pidgin, he'll say "excuse me?" even though he understood what I was saying. I confess that sometimes I amp up my pidgin level to gain street cred among those who are Hawaiian when I am clearly not Hawaiian.
I guess my point in all this rambling is I think pidgin can be used respectfully by non-native speakers depending on what the speaker's intent is. Non-native speakers must beware, however, that you may sound stilted, silly, or that your listeners may think you're making fun of them. But I suppose that's true for all communication, regardless of language or dialect. |
Edited by - Momi on 07/18/2007 12:07:35 PM |
|
|
|
rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 11:58:44 AM
|
My mother learned Italian from her parents, both born in the Callllabria region. She drops the final vowel from a lot of words, as her parents did. Parmesana becomes parmesan, etc. Ma always said what she spoke was not real Italian, but a regional dialect. She understood her parents well, Italians from other regions less so. I suspect the Italian spoken in Northern Italy bears some French and German words, and the Southern versions may have some Gerrk and other mediteranian words mixed in. We're all in the tower of Babbel. (Spelling?)
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
