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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2007 : 12:05:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Momi
I have warned Retro to be careful where and how he speaks pidgin when we are in the Islands because it can get you a black eye (literally and figuratively) in short order. (But ask him about his "why, yes, I do like beef" routine sometime.) Plus, speaking pidgin goes contrary to all his years of radio training. But he is a natural mimic, and sometimes it will come out anyway.
"What? Bother yew?" |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 1:07:56 PM
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Now that I am thinking on it, IF pidgin is a legitimate language, philosophically speaking, what is the difference in us learning to speak `olelo Hawai`i or learning to speak pidgin or any foreign language for that matter? I think that trying to speak in the language of a land to which one is a visitor is a sign of respect and a sign of consideration for that culture. People grouch about Mexican immigrants not wanted to learn the English language; or about Spanish speakers wanting ballots or driver's license exams written in Spanish. I agree wholeheartedly with the point that you have to not sound like you are speaking down to someone, regardless of the language you use. I use plenty of pidgin idioms just because I like them and they have become a routine part of my gemischt vocabulary. I love "stink eye". Much more descriptive. I love "mo bettah". It is mo bettah. I love "buggah". Howzit seems to come naturally. But I also speak with plenty of hillbilly words and German words and Hungarian words and Italian words (with Ma's Calabrese dialect) and Yiddish words, as well. Sometimes, I even say "bloke" or "chockoblock" or "blimey". Even, shock...sometimes say "bloody".
Many have said of me, "Sie habe nicht alle tasse im schrank." |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 2:20:36 PM
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| Eddie Kamae pronounces it "yew ka le le". I had the great pleasure to meet him in Santa Cruz last year. He graciously autographed MY "oo koo le le". I didn't have the guts to correct him. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 2:38:49 PM
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Aloha ahiahi e Alika. Since you asked, here’s my two cents, from the point of view of someone who lives in a city where about half of those I run into in an average day speak a language other than English.
I tend to cut people a little slack with how they say words, since the main point of words is, after all, to get across what you’re trying to say, `a`ole anei? Every language, including Hawaiian, has loan words from other languages. We tend to pronounce the loan words using the sounds of the language we’re speaking, not those of the original language.
So if I tell a friend I’m going to Köln or Roma, instead of to Cologne or Rome, they might misunderstand. Or if I talk about my moustache or my bureau and pronounce those words the French way, they’ll probably just look at me funny and walk away.
I usually make a deal with folks who get their `okinas in a twist over pronunciation: "you don’t correct the way I say yoo-kuh-lay-lee when we’re speaking English, and I won’t correct the way you say kïkä when we’re speaking Hawaiian." 
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Edited by - mike2jb on 07/18/2007 2:48:14 PM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 9:00:26 PM
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"Maybe a bigger question to ask is whether it is OK to try to sound like a local when you're not?
With pidgin, learning to speak is a continuum. First comes the rhythm of it. You move emphases around to sound more local. Then comes pronunciation, such as "dat truck ees da bes!". Then there's the grammar, dropping verbs or tense markers, to make local-sounding sentences ("You like go, yeah?" or "Eh! Try move". Then there's non-traditional word uses, such as "stay" instead of "be" or "get" instead of "have" ("Get shave ice dis place?"). Then there's local sayings and phrases, like "spock-u-later" or "da kine." Then there is the Hawaiian language vocabulary that is routinely or occasionally used, such as "hapai" for "pregnant" or "pilikia" for "trouble".
I think the deeper you go in speaking pidgin, as a non-Hawaii resident, the more likely you may offend somebody. As others have said, language is for communication so a good guideline is speak so that you are understood. Some of my Hawaiian relatives speak it so thickly that I can't understand but a word or two per sentence, but they always understand my midwest twang.
I would guess that pidgin serves as a sign of local pride and a way of identifying other locals. A friend of mine was in Hawaii and saw this giant red-haired caucasian guy speaking the thickest pidgin he had ever heard. Later he found out it was Kelly Boy Delima.
Jesse Tinsley
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 10:30:21 PM
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When I studied 'elelo makuahine I learned that there is no hard 'v' sound for words like Hawaii or even for 'Ewa as a direction or place. Opinions vary about the pronunciation of certain consonants and one of put out there was that different islands may have had different variations in pronunciation. if one is speaking Hawaiian as a pure language then by all means make every effort to pronounce properly. But one word here or there in a sentence would have different sounds depending on the native language of the speaker.
Pidgin like any language has certain intonations and vocabulary that could only sound right to another speaker of pidgin. Therefore when one hears it in a public place or otherwise it is like getting a whiff of some favorite long forgotten food. The hearer automatically reverts back to the root because of it.
Some pidgin speakers tend to correct us if we speak pidgin. With all respect I think that is a gut reaction to being brainwashed by colonialist oppressors who tended to go out of their way to embarrass us about our native culture. You have to excuse me about this but I am first and foremost a Hawaiian and history about being colonized and having my original governmental system overthrown by a bunch of people who then made it unlawful to speak my native language for over 70 years strikes a raw nerve.
Pidgin was a result of the mix in cultures that resulted from the importation of people from many lands to perform slave labor on the plantations. The need to communicate with one another gave rise to Hawaiian Creole.
I am grateful that that some of you all are attempting to pay homage to Hawaiian culture by being sensitive and caring about how you speak. But just be yourseves. If you are Southern and have an accent that is OK. If you are from the East Coast or Midwest then you will speak with the sounds you grew up with.
Just keep in mind that even if we are in a new century Hawaii has a history of its own and it steeped in the past where people from elsewhere came saw and conquered. I ask that you temper your efforts with that knowledge in mind. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 12:34:04 AM
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| Al - you are a wise and compassionate teacher. Thank you for teaching us. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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hibiscus58rn
Aloha
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 4:20:41 PM
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I agree with Mark. I was born in Wahiawa, however, I was raised in the SF Bay Area, where I currently reside. I learned Hula here. My father taught Ukulele here. Since my father was in the Army and eventually a teacher, we would always go "home" every summer. We were the California cousins. My cousins didn't know what we were saying, so, just to communicate, we would always slip into pidgin. Still do. However, there is a time and a place. I don't think it's necessary to write in pidgin. There was a Hawaiian man at work who accused me of not being Hawaiian because I didn't sound Hawaiian.(I work in Walnut Creek, CA. as a medical professional.) I was upset with him and annoyed at the fact that he insisted on speaking pidgin to me in the operating room! I kept my composure and communicated to him clearly that "We're not at home, Brah." He stopped and laughed. He retired shortly thereafter and I really never had the chance to show him how good I am at it.
As for Hawaiian language, my father (a Kamehameha Schools graduate) was a stickler for pronouncing Hawaiian words correctly and I, too, find myself correcting my kids or anyone else who attempts to pronounce Hawaiian words. I do it out of the love for the language and I don't mind being corrected if attempting to speak another language myself. I have spanish speaking patients and always ask them how to say or pronouce words. I was recently corrected trying to say something in French and I laughed at myself because I thought, "wow, it's universal." I love to listen to my kupunas and others when they speak fluent Hawaiian. Have you seen Aaron Mahi with Martin Pahinui and George Kuo? Aaron speaks Hawaiian effortlessly as he speaks the audience. Music to my ears. The language is beautiful and must be preserved. The bottom line is we all need to communicate to each other in a loving way no matter what language and learn from each other. I am still learning at 48............... |
Me Ke Aloha Pumehana
Debbie Lindsey Wood |
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hawaiianmusiclover06
`Olu`olu
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 6:06:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hawaiianmusicfan138
I know people may not understand me, I've been in situations where that has occurred. However, I don't mind saying all those words the American way if they don't know what I mean when I say them the Hawaiian way first.
Oh, this just reminded me of something: I was talking on the phone with Alana (hawaiianmusiclover06 on here) and someone else I think, and I said something about Honolulu. However, I accidentally pronounced it as if it was spelled Hanalulu like everyone over here does. Then I had to stop mid-sentence and cry out, "Oh my gosh! I'm so embarrassed!" And Alana was like, "Whoooooooooa!" I'll never forget that at all. E kala mai, e Alana. I know the past is forgotten, but I just had to appologize once again.
'Alika
E 'Alika, you no need to apologize to me again. I like it when we wala'au i ke kelepona. I will never forget that conversation. |
Aloha Kakou, maluhia a me aloha mau loa (Hello everyone, peace and love forever) |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 10:48:58 PM
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About 1/3 of the folks here in Wakinekona put an "r" in the first syllable of "Washington". It's a holdover from migration from upper South and lower Midwest. Here you can hear people ask, "You wanna go with?", a direct importation from Swedish and Norwegian. Spoken English is: "You wanna go?"
I've heard older folks use "kumtuks" (understand), "skookum" (quick, clever, able), "chuck" (water, thus "saltchuck") dating back to the days when Chinook Jargon was the "Pidgin" here. Language is always in a state of correction as different folks meet each other and circumstances change. Remember when "interface" was a sewing term? |
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kaniala5
Akahai
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 07:31:32 AM
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I lived in California and whenever I visited Oahu the kids told me I sounded funny. I told them they should here themselves talk.
When I lived on the island for 21 years, some of the natives accepted my way of talking pidgen with an accent but some, out of ignorance, thought my use of words with three or more syllables was used to make them look stupid.
Being educated in California and having Hawaiian/Haole mix makes my life tricky. I live in two worlds. One of my kumu 'olelo Hawai'i explained that we are schizophrenic. We live two competely different realities here in the United States.
Language is part of what makes me who I am and speaking it labels me in both worlds. I have to be twice as carefull how I speak all the time. I also have to know which world I am in when I am speaking because I can be easily misunderstood by people who don't know me. |
Look for reasons to be happy rather than excuses to be miserable. |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 11:33:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hibiscus58rn
I agree with Mark. I was born in Wahiawa, however, I was raised in the SF Bay Area, where I currently reside. I learned Hula here. My father taught Ukulele here. Since my father was in the Army and eventually a teacher, we would always go "home" every summer. We were the California cousins. My cousins didn't know what we were saying, so, just to communicate, we would always slip into pidgin. Still do. However, there is a time and a place. I don't think it's necessary to write in pidgin. There was a Hawaiian man at work who accused me of not being Hawaiian because I didn't sound Hawaiian.(I work in Walnut Creek, CA. as a medical professional.) I was upset with him and annoyed at the fact that he insisted on speaking pidgin to me in the operating room! I kept my composure and communicated to him clearly that "We're not at home, Brah." He stopped and laughed. He retired shortly thereafter and I really never had the chance to show him how good I am at it.
As for Hawaiian language, my father (a Kamehameha Schools graduate) was a stickler for pronouncing Hawaiian words correctly and I, too, find myself correcting my kids or anyone else who attempts to pronounce Hawaiian words. I do it out of the love for the language and I don't mind being corrected if attempting to speak another language myself. I have spanish speaking patients and always ask them how to say or pronouce words. I was recently corrected trying to say something in French and I laughed at myself because I thought, "wow, it's universal." I love to listen to my kupunas and others when they speak fluent Hawaiian. Have you seen Aaron Mahi with Martin Pahinui and George Kuo? Aaron speaks Hawaiian effortlessly as he speaks the audience. Music to my ears. The language is beautiful and must be preserved. The bottom line is we all need to communicate to each other in a loving way no matter what language and learn from each other. I am still learning at 48...............
Aloha e Debra or Debra-Lynn or Kehaulani or Kehau or whatever you want to be called, (What should I call you?)
You're just like me. Whenever I meet new friends on Hawaiian message boards like this who can speak at least a little 'olelo, I ask them if they don't mind being corrected if they accidentally make a mistake. I also tell them that I don't mind being corrected either. Otherwise, I will never learn from my mistakes. I tell everybody that I can be picky when it comes to learning foreign languages and using them in the proper way. |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 11:37:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hawaiianmusiclover06
quote:
Originally posted by hawaiianmusicfan138
I know people may not understand me, I've been in situations where that has occurred. However, I don't mind saying all those words the American way if they don't know what I mean when I say them the Hawaiian way first.
Oh, this just reminded me of something: I was talking on the phone with Alana (hawaiianmusiclover06 on here) and someone else I think, and I said something about Honolulu. However, I accidentally pronounced it as if it was spelled Hanalulu like everyone over here does. Then I had to stop mid-sentence and cry out, "Oh my gosh! I'm so embarrassed!" And Alana was like, "Whoooooooooa!" I'll never forget that at all. E kala mai, e Alana. I know the past is forgotten, but I just had to appologize once again.
'Alika
E 'Alika, you no need to apologize to me again. I like it when we wala'au i ke kelepona. I will never forget that conversation.
Mahalo for your response, e Alana. Hey, I like wala'au later on! K? hehehe |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 3:39:43 PM
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Most excellent if I do say so, my good man.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 6:03:34 PM
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Menpachi...I stay buss up wen you got fo say sumtin.
Glenn - I experience penultimate enjoyment when you wax loquacious. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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