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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
 Posted - 01/29/2008 : 06:34:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence
Thanks to the idiotic stupidity of cookies and the juvenile and uninformed programmers who designed such things, the previous message was identified as being from Pulelehua when it was not.
If you look at the top right of any TP message board page, right next to where it says "LOGOUT" in large type, you'll see who you're currently logged in as. The juvenile and uninformed programmers (such as myself) assume that you'll either check there before posting or click on "LOGOUT" when you're done if someone else will be using the computer. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 08:55:07 AM
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quote:
OK, fine. Give me a shopping list. (hardware s/w).
Does the Layla have internal storage, or must it be hooked to something that does?
There is just too much out there. I want someone to narrow it down for me, given my requirements.
Mike-- I would strongly suggest that you spend some time reading up on the subject of home recording. It will do you zero good to go out and buy a bunch of stuff if you don't know how to use it.
This subject has been thrashed to death on this site, so digging into the archives is a good place to start.
At the very least you'll need to learn what the pieces of the puzzle are and how they work together. For instance: what Lawrence and Reid call "Digitizers" everybody else in the industry call "computer audio interfaces."
I can suggest a very good book to de mystify home recording-- I wrote it.
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Computer-Music-Nelson/dp/1592008429
Seriously.
cheers,
Mark
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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 10:44:46 AM
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Right. Bought and read a good part of it.
I will just make some choices on my own then.
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 10:46:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
The Echo Layla3G is a digitizer with 2 preamps, phantom power out, and many interconnection ...
...Reid
Yes, I was thinking of the Layla. And the s/w (Audition). Guess I can go without the amps for now. Does the Layla require a pci card?
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
Edited by - slackkeymike on 01/29/2008 10:48:17 AM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 12:19:35 PM
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The Layla3G comes with the card, Mike. Remember, this is not a "soundcard", although functions overlap. It is ready to go as soon as you install it. I really like Audition, and I think both Lawrence and Fran do too, although, I'll bet they have one each of every software package ever written, not to mention every fine mic. One thing about Audition 3.0, you should know: they bloated it with functionality for TV (HD, too) - DVDs and TV stations and ad agencies seem to be Adobe's intended customer set, so 3.0 needs choke computer power. I get along fine with 1.5, but I did buy HarBal for a different kind of EQ'ing process (Fran made me do it). AA 3.0 still has excellent pro audio capabilities, though.
...Reid
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 2:41:21 PM
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quote:
The juvenile and uninformed programmers (such as myself) assume that you'll either check there before posting
Exactly my point - expecting someone to look at tiny print in a random corner is exceedingly juvenile, especially when everyone is constantly being bombarded with pop-up ads and other such triviata. No - Smart software is constructed such that any idiot can use it, ONLY DUMB software requires the user to be hyper-alert and scour the screen for every little comma an period (not to mention okina or kahako)!!!
Just plain stupid!!!
P.S. I write software for a living too, just not as dumb as this idiotic web garbage.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 2:56:53 PM
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quote:
Whats an FFT? Can I play it?
Yes - you actually play it every time you play an MP3 file! Modern sound processing is highly dependent on the Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) and almost nothing works without it. You need a working knowledge of what it does and how to use it and importantly what it can and cannot do. Just type FFT on the wikipedia page although that will quickly get mathematically deep.
You just need to be aware of it's existence at the start, but later on when you run across problems like "Aliasing" you will need to understand why it occurs and how to avoid it.
For instance, the "JS" tools in Reaper allow you to program you own effects, but to do a number of effects you will need to do an FFT conversion and also the reverse.
Knowing stuff like this is what would be called being Techo-Savy in the digital audio world.
But dont' let this scare you, just jump in and get started and you will learn what is needed.
Good luck and have fun!!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 8:27:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence
quote:
Whats an FFT? Can I play it?
Yes - you actually play it every time you play an MP3 file!
OK now... I know you all know sarcasm when you see it, right? I'm an engineer by profession, I know what an FFT is!
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 06:28:50 AM
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For what it's worth, I no longer recommend Audition for the reasons Reid states. I own 3.0 but continue to return to 1.5, which is no longer available for purchase. You can get essentially the same functionality at a much lower cost with Audacity for your wave editor and Reaper for your multitracker.
Most Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) software is available in downloadable trial versions. You might do a little pre-shopping that way. And many audio interfaces come bundled with software of some kind.
One thing I was curious about, Mike, was your goal in using this stuff. You mentioned wanting to do some overdubbing. Will the final product be a CD that you hope to sell?
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 09:14:36 AM
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OK now... I know you all know sarcasm when you see it, right? I'm an engineer by profession, I know what an FFT is!
Sorry - did not recognize the sarcasm this time, lots of folks here don't know an FFT from a Fuzzy Furry Tralfamadorian.
Good that you know FFT /IFFT because you can Download Reaper right now, and then when you get comfortable with the basic mixing and some of the plugins, you can try your hand at the JS-Scripting language which allow you to make YOUR OWN custom plugs, without having to worry about API issues and programming in C++.
As far as digitizer hardware is concerned, you first need to figure out how many SIMULTANEOUS (analog and otherwise-like midi and SMPTE) input channels you need to record at once. My minimum recommendation would be a 4-channel interface. The Layla is an 8-channel interface, and of course you can buy as many channels as you want by getting multiple interfaces. Then you need the mics, preamps, etc.
You can search Taropatch for "Recording" or "digitizer" or "Sound card" (Turn on the archive check-box) and get lots of gear recommendations and links to other recording sites such as this one:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/30/2008 09:34:04 AM |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 7:45:41 PM
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Lawrence, please don't send people to GearSlutz <grin>. Well, sorta grin. But sorta seriously, many of these guys give recording engineers a very bad name, like the gentleman who insisted he could hear the difference between two files that were bit for bit duplicates. Many of the folks who hang out on GS look askance at any mic preamp costing less than $1500 for two channels.
Just for jokes I did a little comparison of three preamps. One cost $150, one cost $700, one cost $1500. You can listen to the files at my Homebrewed Music blog. Can you honestly tell, in a blind test, which preamp cost 10 times more than the other? And even if you can tell, do you hear a difference significant enough to make or break a recording project??
I've read recording forums (fora??) extensively over the last few years hoping to learn the "magic trick" to great recording. Inspired, inflamed even, by what I read, I've bought a/d converters, mic preamps, monitors, software, and microphones to a degree that embarrasses me when I think about it. None of those gadgets made a great recording.
I did pick up a few very important ideas scattered here and there. Performance counts over everything else, so practice a lot. The sound of the room is a big part of the sound of the recording, so treat the room to improve the sound. Recording experience helps a lot, so record a lot and listen critically to the result. And keep levels around -10 to -15db, digital recording systems are actually scaled differently than analog, so the old "hotter is better" concept we learned when recording to tape just leads to analog distortion, digital clipping, and a harsh edgy sound.
I really try to keep these opinions to myself, but when I see someone recommend GearSlutz I have to try to deflect the innocent <grin>.
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 03:21:26 AM
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Fran, can you elaborate on this?:
"I did pick up a few very important ideas scattered here and there. Performance counts over everything else, so practice a lot. The sound of the room is a big part of the sound of the recording, so treat the room to improve the sound. Recording experience helps a lot, so record a lot and listen critically to the result. And keep levels around -10 to -15db, digital recording systems are actually scaled differently than analog, so the old "hotter is better" concept we learned when recording to tape just leads to analog distortion, digital clipping, and a harsh edgy sound."
-10 or -15 is really low, especially if your (my) ambient noise level is around -50dbfs (and I can't treat the room to get rid of it because it is entirely due to to the constant wide-band noise of Southern CT - mostly traffic *everywhere*). The only way I could avoid it is to dig an underground bunker. I usually shoot for peaks around -3 to -6. Tell me about the digital scaling, please.
...Reid |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 06:26:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence
quote:
The juvenile and uninformed programmers (such as myself) assume that you'll either check there before posting
Exactly my point - expecting someone to look at tiny print in a random corner is exceedingly juvenile
Granted, the current implementation isn't as obvious as it could be but it's there, you know it's there, and you simply failed to check it before posting. Your outburst is uncalled for and, dare I say it, somewhat juvenile. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 07:06:10 AM
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Reid, when you raise the gain on your preamp to get to -3 you're raising the background noise right along with the signal. The signal to noise ratio in the room, in front of the mic is never going to be changed by any gain knob you can turn on the gear after the mic. The only adjustment you have for SNR in the room is to position the mic for more signal. For instance, placing the mic 6" away from the source instead of 3'. Raising the mic preamp gain also has no effect on the mic SNR. Raising the preamp gain only impacts the SNR of the analogue gear after the preamp, the analogue stage of the A/D converter.
Our analog chain, the mic preamp/mixer, even those on integrated audio interfaces, is designed to drive the next stage to somewhere around 0 dbVU. This is the standard that was used for tape machines, and is still the design standard for analogue recording gear. This is roughly equivalent to -18 dbFS. So pushing the gain to hit 0 dbFS is pushing the mic pre beyond its optimal range.
Here are some sources for further reading.
A Home Recording Forum discussion, you'll see the same confusion about the effect of preamp gain on room noise.
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=204358
A discussion in Studioforums that specifically mentions the Delta 1010.
http://studioforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1526095781/m/3501014701?r=4861013361#4861013361
And here's one from 3db Forum explaining that analog gear was designed for 0 dbVU, a far different, and much lower level than 0 dbFS.
http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showpost.php?p=97471&postcount=8
Hopefully reading through these and Googling around a bit will help make this more clear.
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 07:34:58 AM
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Thanks Fran,
What you said, about raising ambient noise along with signal, is clear, and I was confused about that - I should have known it. I'll read those links about the mic pre design parameters to get an understanding of that aspect.
...Reid |
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