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Larry Goldstein
Lokahi
267 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2007 : 09:12:13 AM
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Aloha,
Recently there have been a couple of threads in www.acousticguitar.com on the subject of how guitars “open up” and what does that mean? I thought it would be interesting to offer this subject for discussion here at TP.
What has been your experience? What change(s) have you perceived? How long did it take? Do you think top wood or predominant tuning make a difference? What about the idea of putting a new guitar in front of good speakers and blasting it with some great ki ho‘alu for a few weeks? Could this really accelerate the process?
Larry
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 09:47:02 AM
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http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/HulaGirlShaker.html
I made a couple of these "Hula Girl Shakers" and attached them to my guitars and ukuleles while they were hanging on the wall (from guitar hangers). Then I connected them to the speaker outputs of my CD player and put a few slack key CDs on loop and rotated the CDs around for a few weeks. I closed the door to the room (my cocker spaniel was looking at me funny ) and let them little hula girls do their magic.
At least to my mind, the instruments sound better. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 10:06:15 AM
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Guitars do "open up" or change over time. The usual period for a new guitar is about a year and it often happens quite suddenly. Then it improves more slowly over a very long time. The volume/sensitivity increases and the frequency balance changes. Most often the bass increases to match the treble content, but I had one custom guitar that had very little treble (top 2 strings) until a year had passed. Then it became very clear and balanced. Depends on the wood, really (somehow - nobody really knows what happens inside the wood).
There are various theories about what makes this happen. Also, various funny techniques to try to accelerate the process. I think Mike's is close to being the most amusing.
Sarah and I just played them. That was even more amusing.
You can read all you want to about this topic by searching rec.music.makers.gutars.acoustic. on Usenet or Google Groups. It is a perennial issue. Look especially for Al Carruth's posts on the subject.
...Reid |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 3:45:03 PM
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One of the old books I learned from (MANY years ago!) said it had to do with the finish and the wood curing together over time. Lots of time. That book claimed you should never refinish a stringed instrument, as the years of mellowing would have to be repeated to get the sound back to where it was. More recently, I've read that cedar starts a bit mellower and ages more quickly than spruce, but over time the spruce will age, and mellow, more. These are the 2 woods predominantly used for tops; I've never seen soft woods used for back/sides. I believe flamenco guitars were traditionally made with cypress tops. I'don't recall reading much about them, or their aging characteristics. One of the biggest things in banjos lately is old-growth wood retrieved from under the surface of lakes. Supposedly, logs that were not retrieved during logging operations have been slowly becoming valuable over the last 200 years. The water leaches out the oil;s and replaces them with calcium. How this makes it sound better, I don't understand, but some folks are willing to spend big bread for banjo pots made of this wood.Then you have to have all the other parts made/ bought or scavenged to build the banjo. Too rich for my blood, but I may just be cheap. Thief: Your money or your life! Jack Benny: I'm thinking!
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 9:18:51 PM
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| I just got a handmade slothead slightly smaller than classical steel string guitar with white cedar sides and back with matching sound board. The guitar is just hand rubbed with some kind of French oil. Can't leave it in sun or it will melt off of the guitar. I just got it because when you finger pick it it is louder than any guitar I own or have heard. And I have heard some real fine guitars. This guitar really sings with a light touch. If i get the guitars characteristics down it would make a really great recording instrument. The neck is mahogany with rosewood fingerboard and bridge. The nut and saddle are Tusq and it is about1"13/16" at the nut. So there are exceptions to what woods are used where I guess. I just found it in a little music store run by one guy who builds guitars and renaissance instruments. He also words with classical instruments like violin, viola, cello and up the ladder to double bass's. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 9:35:55 PM
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I have been taking mental notes on various guitar brands to help me make an educated decision on which will be my next purchase. The mention here of guitar finishes and how it affects sound and apparently the "opening up" of a guitar is very intresting to me. I have found that some makers are using urethane finishes rather than the traditional laquer finishes. I am curious to hear the opinions of some of you more knowledgeable ones on this matter.
I recently toured the Breedlove factory and found that they are using urethane finishes. Breedlove guitars are beautiful instruments but I have not found even one that has a sound quality that knocks me over...my personal opinion...at least compared to Martin or Taylors, or even my Seagull. I'm not sure that the finish is what is making the difference, but curious to know if it does have something to do with it. What do you all think?
One thing I can tell you, I have my fathers '47 Martin all mahogany oo-17, and it has a richness that no new oo-17 I have ever picked up has yet to match. Is it the age and the changes that go along with it? Dunno, but there is a definite difference. |
What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
Edited by - Podagee57 on 10/09/2007 9:37:45 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 02:27:02 AM
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Paul plays a 12 string Simon & Patrick that has a matte finish -- no varnish, urethanes, etc. And it sounds so wonderful. It is superb for a moderate priced guitar. It is made of cedar. He used to play a 12-string that he has had since he was a teenager, with a very thick, shiny urethane finish. I think it is EKO brand. Looks pretty but really dulls the sound. What a difference between the two guitars. I do believe that the less chemicals on the wood, the better, more mellow they sound.
Now everyone knows the stories about Stradivari's violins and that everyone believes the secret to their beautiful sound is the varnish used. I have read, however, that aging has made them more beautiful sounding, but also that they must be played periodically to keep them "alive". That a Strad that has not been played for a long time sounds no better than a nondescript instrument. Something about friction/heat generated when the wood vibrates when played reacts in a synergistic relationship with the finish of the instrument to give it "life".
According to that theory, you play 'em, they sound mo bettah. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 10/10/2007 04:53:21 AM |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 04:50:22 AM
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About three years ago, on a day off, a little voice inside my head told me I needed to go to Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto. It's a dangerous place for guitar players since there's honestly millions of dollars of high-end guitars just hanging on the walls. Inside the front door, second puka to the left is the used and consignment instruments. On this occasion there was a 1997, Goodall, Royal Hawaiian Standard. My jaw dropped.
I took the instrument off the wall and into the lesson room. It felt wonderful cradled in my arms. The neck and action were to die for. Besides, it was absolutely gorgeous. I tuned it to Taropatch and started playing. To my surprise, I could barely hear it. I kept playing Occasionally a note would leap out. There was hope!. Ahh, another note. At about the 45 minute mark, it started sounding pretty darn good, but still not what I expected.
I found out that it had been purchased by a collector in 1997. By the looks of it, it had never been out of the case and never played. I put it on a 24 hour hold (Honey, I saw a guitar today I really liked!!) and came back the next day. Again, I played it for quite some time before the notes came singing out.
Of course I bought it. After playing the living daylights out of it and taking it back to Hawai`i for a week (Aloha Music Camp) it's become an incredibly beautiful sounding guitar. Once in a while, if it's been locked up for a week or two, it'll still quiet up, but after a couple minutes playing is fine.
Moral: If you want a guitar to OPEN UP. Play the damn thing.
Woods, finishes, string gauges, exposure to musical sound pressures, etc., all contribute to Open-ness, but nothing beats playing.
dog
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Edited by - `Ilio Nui on 10/10/2007 04:51:39 AM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 07:52:01 AM
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My experience has been that laminated top guitars do not "open up" at all, since they're not solid pieces of wood. Cedar tops change very little, if at all. I think Jim Olson (luthier), who's primary instrument is a cedar top small jumbo, would attest to this. Spruce tops open up dramatically.
'Ilio Nui hit it on the head, the guitar needs to be played to open up, since the top needs to vibrate. |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 08:25:11 AM
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or let them "hula girl shakers" do their magic!
just kidding
I agree. You have to play them to make em sound good. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Larry Goldstein
Lokahi
267 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 09:52:08 AM
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Mahalo all for your replies.
quote:
Cedar tops change very little, if at all
Aha! One reason I posed this topic was my Ramirez R-4 has a solid cedar top, and hasn't changed at all in 3 years of playing. My 1995 Goodall came to me with many years of playing, and has always sounded gorgeous. So I've never experienced the phenomenon of a guitar "opening."
Larry |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 10:22:43 AM
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"Cedar tops change very little, if at all."
Well, Darin, it depends on the cedar and it depends on the luthier. Both are complex.
Sarah has a "parlor", actually 0 size, made by Hank Mauel of cedar over koa. It got very much louder over time, although the tonality stayed much the same. It was balanced in volume, but on the bright side, from the getgo. It took the standard year.
I had a classical (turbo) made by Paul McGill that I sold after 6 years (my thumbs, dontcha know). Cedar over cocobolo. It bloomed like mad, both in volume and tonality - incredibly rich, but clear trebles. Paul called me today and said he was setting it up for the guy who bought it from me - he plays like Segovia and I played like me, so I had a very low action and he had it raised and re-Pleked. Paul was raving about it and said he never would have expected it to sound as wonderful and powerful as it does now. His surprise was not because of the wood, but because of me - I was a wimpy nylon plucker. If I weren't so old and infirm, I never would have sold it.
Woods and people are organic, highly variable, and never truly predictable. You can only talk probabilities.
...Reid |
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Leonard
Lokahi
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 11:22:57 AM
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| There's a theory with some research behind it that one of the contributors to "opening up" is the existence of purfling grooves in violins and on guitars that have purfling. Here's the theory: If you imagine removing the purfling, the attachment of the top to the sides would have way less contact surface - the top is freer to vibrate. When new, the purfling is glued securely into that corner (for guitars) or into the groove (for violins), thus increasing the contact surface in the glue joint between the top and sides, thus making the top less free to vibrate. As the years go by, the glue in the purfling joint (especially true in violin-family instruments) begins to loosen, gradually making the top freer to vibrate than when it was new. Probably more of a factor in violins, since their purfling remains in place better, even without solid glue. Looks to me like there are many factors that could contribute - aging of wood, varnish, glue joints - and that they all contribute gradually to the freeing up of the top to vibrate as the years go by. Experimentation would probably entail making some great sounding instruments bad for a few years. I don't think anyone will donate their vintage Martin for the test. LRR |
Be the change that you wish to see in the world. M. Gandhi |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 11:59:13 AM
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[Woods and people are organic, highly variable, and never truly predictable. You can only talk probabilities.
...Reid
[/quote]
Spot on, Reid. My La Patrie Collection is getting better and better and I'm getting worser and worser.
Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 12:00:13 PM
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Found this on the Seagull web-site..answers a lot of questions.
Cedar Top or Spruce Top?
We are often asked to recommend one of these tops over the other. Both Cedar and Spruce share the same virtues in terms of better sound and the ability to age. In the end, this is a totally subjective question that can only be answered by playing the guitars.
Aging
How about this? You buy a new TV and it's great but it keeps getting better the more you watch it! Okay, that's not likely to happen with your TV but it will happen with your solid top guitar. A solid top vibrates much more freely than a laminated (plywood) top. This results in richer tone, better dynamic range and better balance of tone. Not only does a solid top sound better initially, over time the vibrations from playing the guitar result in the top vibrating more and more freely. This phenomenon is called 'aging' which means that the more the guitar is played, the better the guitar will sound. It is important to remember in order for a guitar to age it must be played. A guitar left in its case for 5 years will get older, but it will not 'age'.
Finish
The new Custom Polished finish is...applied without sacrificing the incredible sound of these instruments. Unlike “thick” polyester finishes which deaden the natural sound of a solid top, the Custom Polished finish allows the top to breathe and vibrate freely bringing out the true tone of the wood. This in turn promotes the ever important process, known as “aging”, in which the guitar will actually sound better the more it is played over time.
So, according to this info...
-Both Cedar and Spruce change with time and playing
-Playing is crucial to tonal maturity
-And "thick" urethane finishes do deaden the sound.
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What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 12:52:19 PM
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'course . . that all coming from the marketing department
. . . I don't know how much you guys trust your marketing department . . .
mostly the differences in finish (especially in California) are due more to environmental laws and the amounts of emissable particulates than in the difference in sound quality.
Taylor Guitars and I think Kanile'a Ukulele (among others) now use UV cured polyester finishes. This cures the finish faster and reduces emissions and get that smooth gloss finish without adding thickness to the finish surface. So polyester is not always bad. Now they get credit for having thinner finishes, spend less time (=$$) in the finish room, and claim environmentally friendly status. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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