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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
 Posted - 11/27/2007 : 09:05:39 AM
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In researching the Epiphone Masterbilt guitar that Fran alerted my attention to, I found this video. It is about the Masterbilt line of guitars, which is interesting, but it is the very first part of the video that caught my attention. A guitar that automatically tunes itself?
Click on the video on this page - wait a few seconds and it will begin the promo on the Masterbilt guitars.
here
Thanks Fran, I will be looking to give the Masterbilt series a try.
One other note on guitars with wider nuts - I noticed in my Larivee brochure that they make a steel string finger style guitar with a 1 13/16 nut width. The body appears to be close to an OM style.
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What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
Edited by - Podagee57 on 11/27/2007 09:08:46 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 09:58:48 AM
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quote:
A guitar that automatically tunes itself?
That would be a guitar that automatically puts itself out of tune....
The quest for an auto-tuning guitar's actually pretty old, and lots of folks have tried marketing 'em. Aside from the weight issue of six little servo motors on the headstock, the bigger issue is that of temperment.
Although it has been badgered to death elsewhere, essentially the problem is that you actually don't want your stings to be tuned exactly to pitch. To do so will make some of the notes sound wrong when you start playing. You need to adjust the tuning so it sounds right to your ear, not the tuner.
In my case, I like really short thirds -- so I'll always drop the B string in Taropatch till it sounds right. That might be as much as 10-20 cents off from what the tuner says. Same goes for other tunings. I use the digital tuner to get me in the ballpark, then adjust as needed.
But the robot ain't going to know that, so your groovy self-tuning guitar will always be out of tune.
As are so many people who rely solely on digital tuners, sadly.
And dam', why didn't I think to copyright the phrase "robot guitar?" |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 10:36:49 AM
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| E Mark. Glad for your input. I figured something was up with the B string since I always have to adjust it when I tune down from standard or tune up from slack. I noticed that sometimes the whole shebang goes off because the neck sort of relaxes too and I got to adjust most everything. The digital usually gives me a good ball park but the rest is up to the ear. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 10:57:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
quote:
A guitar that automatically tunes itself?
Aside from the weight issue of six little servo motors on the headstock, the bigger issue is that of temperment.
Although it has been badgered to death elsewhere, essentially the problem is that you actually don't want your stings to be tuned exactly to pitch. To do so will make some of the notes sound wrong when you start playing. You need to adjust the tuning so it sounds right to your ear, not the tuner.
Thank you for addressing this critical issue that has been bothering me for years. Not to overstate it, but since the advent of the electronic tuner, I have heard more out of tune guitars than before the devices existed. Players have become lazy and dependent on the tuners. They tune each string to exact pitch and the result - ironically - is a grossly out of tune guitar. (And having perfect pitch, this is painful to my ears.)
The intonation of the open string is not the "be all, end all." The intonation of each string varies as you move up the fretboard. This is true of even the most expertly set-up guitars. It is a simple fact of life that comes with playing a stringed instrument.
When I tune, I find myself adjusting individual strings a hair sharp or a hair flat from the tuner in order to keep intonation as acceptable as possible up and down the fretboard. I want a G-chord at the 15th fret to be in tune with a G-chord at the 3rd fret.
But it is a travesty - especially for a slack key guitarist - when he or she depends on the tuner because that combination of open strings and fretted strings can be grotesque, and most players regrettably don't have the ear to know.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 4:01:53 PM
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Wow, I have to put in my opinion on this one...
Actually, despite the tempering needed, I think tuners have put guitar players more in tune and not less.
I remeber the days before our bands used tuners. Only the best bands were in tune and most of the rest sounded like the grade school clarinet section. Someone was always off.
Hardly anyone played clean as well. If you took away the distortion pedal, man, everyone would have been soooooo screwed.
When our band finally got one, we were more in tune immediately--with each other and individually, both.
If I ever had to prove a point I could tune without one (with a ref tone) but I do feel greatly disadvataged without a tuner.
I suspect that the vast majority of players need a tuner. |
Bob |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 4:08:16 PM
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Hey Mark and Bill - you guys are pros. At risk of being the guy with the clip on tuner (yes, that's me), I think it is a relative game. When I walk through Guitar Center or Sam Ash, I wish most of the pickers had a tuner because MAYBE that would help 'em sound better.  |
Andy |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 4:31:15 PM
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Interesting topic! I played in a band in the days before electronic tuners and three of the four guitar/bass players could tune a guitar pretty well so we just kept the other guy away from the pegs! I've never taken an objective survey but I have noticed that many people that I see playing use a tuner. How they would fare without it I just don't know. I feel like I can tune a single guitar or tune guitars to each other pretty well but I have no idea where they are in relation to the pitch of the actual notes. Most of the time at home when I pick up my guitar I just make sure the strings are in tune in relation to each other without using the tuner. I generally will check it with the tuner when I will be playing with someone else assuming that they will be doing the same.
One tuning experience that will always stick in my mind was when I attended a workshop put on by Led Ka'apana a year or two ago. I arrived maybe a half hour early but Led and a few other attendees were already there and Led was tuning someones guitar. As each person walked in, Led asked to see their guitar and proceeded to re-tune them. He did not pluck another string on any other guitar nor did he use a tuner. But he tuned everyone's guitar that day and they all sounded great playing together. |
Aloha,
John A. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 4:48:45 PM
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| I'm with Bob and Andy. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 5:27:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Haole_Boy
I suspect that the vast majority of players need a tuner.
And what did they do before those tuners were invented? 
I do concede that the tuners have been helpful in getting players to tune in the ballpark. But as begun this thread, I think that many are woefully undereducated to the limitations of the tuner and the additional steps the player needs to take to adjust for those limitations.
I think that learning to tune by ear is a useful exercise. Learning to recognize relative pitch by ear is a critical first step in ear training. Eventually, when the jam session starts, the guitarist won't have to scream out over seven other musicians, "What key are we in?" They will just be able to hear it. A musician can exercise two skills: a musical eye and a musical ear. I still can't look at a piece of music and tell you what key it's in from the number of sharps and flats. But I can listen to the piece of music and tell you what you key it's in.
Musicianship begins with what we can do with our ears - not just our hands!
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 6:21:46 PM
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Some days ya got it and some days ya don't. I find that there are times when I just can't seem to hear what I'm supposed to be hearing - except I do hear that it's not in tune. Suppose all those paint fumes are goin' right to my ears? These are the times I go for the tuner.
I only recently obtained a tuner. I use it to get in pitch but find myself tweeking things a bit by ear - on a good day of course. Because there are a couple of strings, 1 in particular, I think the second one, that always seems just a bit off when tuned with the tuner. |
What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 7:14:30 PM
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"Because there are a couple of strings, 1 in particular, I think the second one, that always seems just a bit off when tuned with the tuner."
That's the one, Kurt! So your ears can't be that bad! |
Aloha,
John A. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 12:19:09 PM
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quote:
At risk of being the guy with the clip on tuner (yes, that's me), I think it is a relative game.
Please go back and read what I said, everyone. I'm not anti-digital tuner; in fact this is what I said:
quote:
I use the digital tuner to get me in the ballpark, then adjust as needed.
The point is that so few people are bothering with adjusting the tuning after they use the tuner. Having all of your open strings 100% in tune based on the digital tuner is not the proper way to tune a guitar (or any other instrument.)
I own maybe a dozen digital tuners -- a few of which actually work pretty well. Some clip on, too. If I'm in a hurry, or I'm backstage at a noisy joint, I'll even use the tuner to adjust the strings a few cents flat as needed.
But I'll always check the tuning by ear before I start playing for real. If any of you guys have seen me play, you may have noticed that I'll often play a rubato (fancy word for "no strict tempo") intro involving a long descending series of double stops, some chords, and a bunch of harmonics. (There are examples all over "Old Time Slack.") Often I'll noodle around like that while I'm talking to the audience, too.
Guess what? The purpose of that little drill (aside from the fact that it sounds cool) is to check my tuning all up and down the neck. If anything sounds off, I'll twist a knob and keep the intro going a bit till it's right.
I'd strongly suggest getting in the habit yourself. Tune up your guitar, then listen for how the third sounds against the rest of the chord (regardless of tuning). Then run a slow series of ascending or descending double stops against the bass strings and listen for anything out . (Hint: listen for beating: an interference pattern when two notes are almost, but not quite, in tune). Adjust as needed.
Then play a couple of big barre chords and listen. Then play some harmonics. Ditto adjust.
Aside from getting your guitar nicely in tune, you'll give yourself, and your audience, a sweet little intro to your song.
If you learn how to hear if you are in tune or not, your music will sound better. And, for you guys who are into the whole "slack key as relaxation-therapy" thing, it'll feel a lot better, too.
quote:
I find that there are times when I just can't seem to hear what I'm supposed to be hearing - except I do hear that it's not in tune.
The reasons why it is sometimes hard to hear if you are in tune or not are many; but the main culprits for me are:
1) Florescent lighting. Ugh.
2) I'm tired, or coming down with a cold, or preoccupied with something.
3) Old strings. Heck, if I start having trouble tuning, first thing I do is slap on a fresh set. Old strings is the number one cause of tuning issues with my students, I've noticed.
4) I'm nervous. No, I do not get particularly nervous on stage. But I do get nervous when I teach, believe it or not. I can never play worth a damn when I'm teaching...
Happy tuning!
Mark
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 12:58:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
But I'll always check the tuning by ear before I start playing for real. If any of you guys have seen me play, you may have noticed that I'll often play a rubato (fancy word for "no strict tempo") intro...
Ok, I'm guilty of not reading thoroughly and not always tweaking post tuner. Thanks for the tip, Mark. That is helpful. |
Andy |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 09:02:20 AM
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OK Mark....fluorescent lighting?
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What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
Edited by - Podagee57 on 11/29/2007 09:03:21 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 11:03:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
quote:
A guitar that automatically tunes itself?
That would be a guitar that automatically puts itself out of tune....
The quest for an auto-tuning guitar's actually pretty old, and lots of folks have tried marketing 'em. Aside from the weight issue of six little servo motors on the headstock, the bigger issue is that of temperment.
Although it has been badgered to death elsewhere, essentially the problem is that you actually don't want your stings to be tuned exactly to pitch. To do so will make some of the notes sound wrong when you start playing. You need to adjust the tuning so it sounds right to your ear, not the tuner.
In my case, I like really short thirds -- so I'll always drop the B string in Taropatch till it sounds right. That might be as much as 10-20 cents off from what the tuner says. Same goes for other tunings. I use the digital tuner to get me in the ballpark, then adjust as needed.
But the robot ain't going to know that, so your groovy self-tuning guitar will always be out of tune.
As are so many people who rely solely on digital tuners, sadly.
And dam', why didn't I think to copyright the phrase "robot guitar?"
The idea of tuning every string relative to a 440 A only came about with the advent of electronic tuners, IMHO. For example,before electronic tuners, steel guitarists would use natural harmonics to get their instruments in tune - a Herculaean task with a double-10 pedal steel with a bunch of pedals and knee levers. Buddy Emmons (the Paganini of pedal steel, the Bud of Sho-Bud and the Emmons of Emmons steels, the bringer of pushrods and bellcranks to replace cables, etc) was unhappy about the results of tuning to a 440 A, sat down with a Korg tuner and found out that, using harmonics to tune the steel, if the E strings on the E9 neck and the C strings on the C6 neck are tuned to 440, every other string is flatter than 440 - for example, there is an F raise on the E string that is tuned to 433. Scotty published the results in his newsletter and his Pedal Steel Anthology in the late 70's, which is a blessing to steelers who gig regularly.
On the same subject, the B string on a standard guitar has the lowest tension and is the hardest one to tune. Bob Riskin, proprietor of McCabes in Santa Monica, CA, and technowhiz extrordinaire, figured out what string gauges would be needed for the same tension in each string. We wired up a Martin D28. It sounded horrible! In summary, what a lot of us know, tune to the tuner and then mess around to get it sounding right. |
keaka |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 12:52:14 PM
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OK Mark....fluorescent lighting?
Ever listen to 'em? Well, if you've ever been in a room with florescent lighting, you can't help but to listen to the constant buzz they put out. Gawdawful sound, if you ask me. Even new fixtures buzz; the older ones put out quite a racket. Sad to say, most folks who have to work in that environment learn to tune them out (so to speak).
For me, the buzz makes it very hard to hear the overtones of each string well enough to get in tune.
(I also have a heck of a time tuning in the middle of the redwoods at Lark Camp, which I chock up to massive sleep deprivation coupled with massive quantities of... fun.)
FWI: I'm talking about the big tube fixtures found in classrooms, libraries, back rooms of guitar stores, etc. The itty bitty ones everybody wants you to buy to "save*" energy don't appear to be a problem.
* We've had this discussion before, too. To death. |
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