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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2008 : 11:53:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Haole_Boy
PMIA is considered the best choice for finger-style guitar playing. So, if you are not set in your ways, it would be the one to choose.
Hey, a good finger is a terrible thing to waste. It's more better to use more fingers.
sounds kind of reasonable... thats probably what I will do.. i like it.... I think I just have to be very careful when I learn the song to be sure i dont develop the wrong muscle memory for the song.. just slow down the learning, take an extra few days or weeks to get it all down the right way, whatever way u really want to play with.. carefully, like the PIMA pattern.. and just stick to that.. from the get go.. i think i was just hurrying through the song.. just getting the notes and strings to pluck as soon as I could.. i need to remember to slow it down and be more careful i guess
quote:
I have a topic on alaska picks. In it Bing recommended using glue on nails from Guitarplayernails.com
I tried them and they are awesome. They feel like real nails and if you break a nail just glue one on that finger. I am using them by choice on my IMA fingers and will probably continue. They make a better tone than real fingernails.
one cool thing I almost tried here in China was using these nail picks that they use for their "Guzheng" or just "zheng" which has about 26 strings that are plucked continuously and quite powerfully plucked
the picks are tied on the fingers with string, they are a little narrower than your nail, and pointed at the ends.. and they are very secure and solid, probably more secure than fake nails.. i havent tried them yet, but the sound they make, really resonates beautifully, you might want to check those out in Chinatown.. or I could mail anyone a set if they know they'd like to try them
i think you can see them used on a youtube video here:
http://www.philmultic.com/home/instruments/ |
Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
Edited by - Tetapu on 04/17/2008 01:00:15 AM |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 06:06:54 AM
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Tetapu,
I have been very fortunate to have a few lessons with both Ozzie Kotani and Peter Medeiros. Neither use picks and both take care of their nails. I used to use a thumb pick so my thumb felt more comfortable. At one lesson with Ozzie, he asked me to play something for him. So like a dum @ $$ I tried to play one of his songs, "Paka 'Ua". He was very kind but was to the point. With the thumb pick I could only play the alternating bass pattern LOUD. He said sometimes, the bass is meant to support the melody as part of the chord structure and not BE the melody. He suggested I take off the thumbpick and grow my thmbnail longer. then he played the song the right way changing the angle and position of his thumb to create a palette of sounds (of course) -- and "bing", the light-bulb went on. His way sounded so much more balanced and was pleasing to the ear. I still have my thumb pick in my "extras" box but don't use it anymore. I have found more sounds available in my player's toolbox using the flesh of the thumb, my thumbnail, and both together flesh-nail (almost a double pick).
I used to use the Alaska Piks for my other fingers but they pinched my fingers, made them turn blue, and they always seemed to sound too harsh (to me. Now I have a "feminine" right hand with nails and a closely cropped "high and tight" left hand.
Peter Medeiros (Professor of music at UH Manoa, that once had Ozzie as a student) explained that many of the Hawaiian Ki Ho'alu players learned away from a formal school, they watched and learned what their fathers and uncles taught them. This resulted in many different ways to play slack key with either right hand or left hand technique. Some play right hand with two fingers exclusively, some with three, some with four, and some alternate depending on the song. The left hand style varies when playing the two-finger chords (also called parallel sixths). Peter, in his fantastic book, calls them Even/Closed or Open/Closed positions. Some players play these with two fingers only and have to lift up a finger to move to the next position which stops the string before playing the next pair. Some play with three fingers and can (with practice) play the string pair chords "legato" or smoothly, that is in transitioning from note to note, there is no intervening silence. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 08:10:13 AM
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Thumb technique is definitely worth working on. Nail, flesh, and nail/flesh contact can change the tone and volume so much. It is a little difficult to do and has to be practiced a lot. On the other hand (not literaly), it is not nearly as difficult as developing a violin style vibrato.
How many fingers? I want to add one more comment about it. If anyone is tyring to decide, I hope this makes sense.
If you start with PIMA it would be very easy to cut back to two or three if you wish. On the filp side, you will have a rude awakening if you decide to change from two, to PIMA.
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 04/17/2008 09:45:45 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 2:12:02 PM
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I agree with Bob - if you are just starting out, learn the basics properly and it will serve you well.
That being said....
I learned on my own, watch and listen and try, so I have decades of bad habits. But I will change my fingering to mmatch the song.
Mostly I play with thumb and two or three fingers. But, when I tried to get inside Uncle Ray's style, I taught myself with one finger. It sounds different-- the timing and syncopation just don't work with more fingers.
Ditto when I sat in front of Ozzie: the only way to play some of his stuff was to finger it the way he does: one finger per string and thumb plays some melody notes.
Ditto struggling through proper classical technique to learn Keola's stuff.
Now, in all cases, I did this so I can better understand someone's style, not because I am trying to cop their sound. But in every case I learned something I would not havve known otherwise.
Oh, and like quite a few guitarists, I substitute fingers without even being aware of it. Comes in handy when I break a nail or injure a finger. And I sometimes play electric with a flat pick and two fingers....
My point? How many fingers depends on what you want to do, and who you are.
But, if you are just learning, take advantage of several hundred years of figuring it out and learn PIMA.
Which is not a city in Leru.
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Daryl
Aloha
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 11:33:58 PM
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I learned to play George Harrison's song 'Here Comes The Sun' - way back when - using a flat pick and my middle finger. I don't know how he originally did it but that's just how I figured it out (scatching up several Abbey Road albums in the process). When I play it now it's either that way or with a thumb pick (Fred Kelly speed pick) and three fingers. Sometimes the little finger hits a note or two. One of these days I think I'll go without the thumb pick.
Daryl |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 4:39:39 PM
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I play bare fingered by myself. When with "da guyz", I use a Golden Gate thumbpick and medium gage brass Dunlop fingerpicks for volume and crispness. Brass is softer than steel and has less noise. I guess it's whatever you get used to.
My Dad said to play it clean sounding, no matter what. (What does a kordeen player know?) |
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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 5:04:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mika ele
Peter, in his fantastic book, calls them Even/Closed or Open/Closed positions. Some players play these with two fingers only and have to lift up a finger to move to the next position which stops the string before playing the next pair. Some play with three fingers and can (with practice) play the string pair chords "legato" or smoothly, that is in transitioning from note to note, there is no intervening silence.
what book is Peters?? where can i find it?
i think I will grow my nails long.. I remember when I was playing Tahitian banjo I had a friend who was learning doing nails, and he used this liquid nail that he would build on to our fingers and sculpt any way we liked them.. they were quite strong.. much stronger than regular fake nails, and gave us that loud crisp sound needed in the Fete..
My guitar now has an electric pick up with an automatic tuner... the tuner says 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 rather than the notes, which sucks for slack key, but taro patch tuning just does 3, 4, 3, 4, 5, 6 but i guess i will have to use an external tuner for other tunings..
other guitars had built in tuners which said the exact Key, like F#.. but the controls were not so smooth.. I got this one because the adjustments on bass, mid, and treble, and focus were high precision dials, so I havent really had much of a problem with bass volume cause i can just turn it up or down.. but I didnt know that you could be alternating the bass within the song .. so the nail seems essential now...
mahalo for all that good advice
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Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
Edited by - Tetapu on 04/18/2008 5:06:38 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 7:11:11 PM
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Careful about nail length. Long nails are not needed. Of course, Keola Beamer's are very long, but he has super strong nails. All you need is --well-- look at your right hand, palm towards you - you should only see the nails sticking up about 1/8 inch - 1/4 inch max. They need to be properly shaped. I think Scott Tenant in "Pumping Nylon" has about the easiest to understand write up of how to shape nails. Hard to put into words - easy to show in person. Hard because the curve of the top of your nail affects the final shape you need. ALSO - In the long run that liquid nail goop will weaken your nails - very couter productive. I use it only in necessary as an emergency repair before a gig, and then get the stuff off asap.
However, there are more factors in play here. The most obvious is which fingers for which strings. But, as some of the members have begun to mention - also important is the quality of the tone of each note. This is especially important if you are soloing. How you attack the string, (free stroke/rest stroke,) the angle of the finger, nail/flesh blend, where you pluck relative to nut/bridge, where and how hard you fret, vibrato - all of these are important to producing good/(interesting) quality tone. The true poetry of the guitar comes very much from the timbres or tonal qualities and how you modulate them as you play.
And don't forget the spaces in between notes. Each note has to "breathe" and at the same time fit into the pattern you're playing - e.g. smooth line, staccato, etc etc. Rushing things is one of the biggest mistakes we make. And when we get nervous and want to "play right," the natural tendency is to rush the music.
One of the things that separates a beginner from an skilled player is their musicality, and a big part of that is letting each note develop and achieve its own sound, at the same time blending each note into it's phrase and ultimately the whole song. Lot more to it than just which finger on which string. |
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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 02:23:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
And don't forget the spaces in between notes. Each note has to "breathe" and at the same time fit into the pattern you're playing - e.g. smooth line, staccato, etc etc. Rushing things is one of the biggest mistakes we make. And when we get nervous and want to "play right," the natural tendency is to rush the music.
thanks for the details.. very valuable..
what about this "breathe" stuff? I heard some other people talking about not lengths etc.. in general, I just try to make the note resonate as long as possible without touching the string again until I pluck it.. but maybe that makes too many notes playing at the same time which might offset the tone or chord or overall sound.. right?
how to judge the "breathe" time? does it need to be stopped for a moment before plucking again? |
Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 08:24:45 AM
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| I'm not good enough to be able to address his in words, or even generalities. I can hear it or its absence in a specific song/performance, and deal with it at that level. It's not just how long you let a note sound, but that is important. It also isn't just when you pluck the next note, and that is important too. It a;so is something like does each note have its full sound reaized before the next note. Sorry I can't find better words for this, maybe someone else can. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 2:21:34 PM
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| I think it is known as phrasing. Its how a melody is expressed that imparts emotion to the music. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 01:05:12 AM
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Me! I 'JUS PRESS'
Slackkey Bill |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 05:11:15 AM
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Bill! You are still around? Good to know. Try stay a while.
BTW, Al hit the notion right on the nose. It is like the kind of things that good singers, like Sinatra (yes) do/did, and you can always tell it when you hear it.
...Reid |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 11:22:22 PM
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Hey Wassssssssssssup Reid! Okay, I promise I'll stick around. This topic reminds me of when I fisrt tried playing "Kiho'alu"...I couldn't figure out how to go about it! Until I joined the every Tuesday "kanikajamms" at Bailey House. Years later, I still use the 5-4-6-4-5-4-6-4 bassline.
It helps to get me into left and right hand finger coordination. Haven't been playing much, since everyones gotten so busy with Gigs. In fact, I haven't even crossed paths with anyone! So began playing the ukulele alot...It's been a while, but it's like riding a bike...you don't forget.
BTW! I'd like to introduce you to Peter Delapinia (Uncle Peter he's called) If ever you've been to Mele Ukulele, just before the Wailuku bridge on the right hand side, he's usually there in his corner ready to let customers hear the various ukuleles that are sold there.
Talking about how many fingers musicians use, go to You Tube, type in Peter Delapinia he's playing a Tenor uke. Watch how he just does his thing. Hey! no worry! I still 'jus press. In fact I brought out my old Martin again....SWEEEEET!!!!! "How'zit Andy! Sarah! Keith and everybody else! Miss you guys!"
slackkey Bill |
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 05:31:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by slackkey
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snip...snip...
Talking about how many fingers musicians use, go to You Tube, type in Peter Delapinia he's playing a Tenor uke. Watch how he just does his thing. Hey! no worry! I still 'jus press. In fact I brought out my old Martin again....SWEEEEET!!!!! "How'zit Andy! Sarah! Keith and everybody else! Miss you guys!"
slackkey Bill
Very nice `uke playing  
  Good to see you posting, Bill!
(sorry, piff) |
Dusty |
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