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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
 Posted - 01/02/2008 : 12:15:11 PM
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Since I brought this up in another post, here is a link to
understanding the LOUDNESS WAR (was that loud enough?):
http://turnmeup.org
This is threatening to destroy the quality of all commercal music, and YOU (the buyer), cannot do much about it, unless you get to the level of "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
I have been at this level for this issue for at least the last 6 to 10 years (but then I am very picky about Music quality), but it is getting so bad that most folks need to get involved or a whole generation of Music might be destroyed possibly forever.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/02/2008 1:41:37 PM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 2:16:25 PM
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quote:
This is threatening to destroy the quality of all commercal music, and YOU (the buyer), cannot do much about it, unless you get to the level of "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".
Lessee, when was the last time I bought a commercial release?? (Tho, to be sure, I've been a fan of Bob Katz and his crusade against over-compressed mastering for quite a few years.)
Face it, guys like us listen to weird (as in "non-mainstream") music. And weird music is usually produced by weird-os who like music to sound like music.
The fact that 99% of people now listen to MP3s (or similar) through crappy earbuds is what gets my goat.
I love the fact that all the pro-sumer recording gear now support 96/24 or better audio (if you don't know what that means, don't worry), but the main delivery system sounds like a telephone.
Wanna real get more annoyed about the future? Read this: http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2007/12/07/future-of-cell-phone-headsets.html
Grumpy Old Mark
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Edited by - Mark on 01/02/2008 2:24:48 PM |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 3:12:54 PM
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quote:
The fact that 99% of people now listen to MP3s (or similar) through crappy earbuds is what gets my goat.
Yes - and they seem happy with it, which is where the Death of High Fidelity comes in . However, I have hope that in a decade or two "High Fidelity" (probably under some other newly invented name, which like "BlueTooth", is a re-invented old technology), will re-appear from some Company like Monster. And you will have to pay a periodic liscense subscription fee to use it!
quote:
I love the fact that all the pro-sumer recording gear now support 96/24 or better audio (if you don't know what that means, don't worry), but the main delivery system sounds like a telephone.
Yes - and now, because of the "technical advances" of the Loudness War we will be able (and forced) to listen to many thousands of hours of 24bit/96Khz material that sounds just like an old Telephone!!
...Grumpy Old Lawrence
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/02/2008 3:30:47 PM |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 5:12:27 PM
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Wow, we got Da Kine Grumpy Old Men. Maybe we can make a movie?
I see the problem, but I don't think it reaches the level of the real problem with mainstream music: The banal lyrics. There's no one writing poetry. How many ways can we say I love/despise you because you're so pretty/stuck-up/friendly/evil. You made me whole/tore my soul apart. In between you have the lets drink/do drugs/have sex song. I haven't bought any CD's except Hawaiian, Cowboy,or old Tyme in ages. I even find this drivel invading Bluegrass nowadays. They can compress it all they want, I'm too bored with the lyrics to listen to the radio anymore. Except certain internet stations, like Sugar In The Gourd, Slack Key Paradise, Hawaiian Rainbow,and a few others. I listen to Taropatch and Banjo Hangout as much as any others.
Grumpy Old(Tyme)Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 01/02/2008 5:13:34 PM |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 5:44:37 PM
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The banal lyrics. There's no one writing poetry
Speaking of which - I just saw "Walk Hard" last weekend (with intentionally written Banal Lyrics). I nearly rolled out of my chair, they certainly "assinated" Johnny Cash, Elvis, Bo Didley, Roy Orbison, the Beachboys, the Beatles, Disco and RAP, to name a few. However, the mandatory "on-the-road Orgy" scene (like we have all heard of and now depicted) is definitely Adult material. This is all done in jest of course and serves to highlight how bad things have gotten these days (lyrics wise).
Of course I very much like some material from the above artist/genres and if I was not familiar with it I would not not have gotten the jokes. For instance, my comrade at the show did not even notice the Roy Orbison references.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/02/2008 6:04:23 PM |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 5:58:22 PM
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There was a really good article about this in Rolling Stone (of all places... the turnmeup.org guys were involved) and subsequently a nice discussion about it on a recording forum I frequent.
I have to agree that over compression of music at this point is really annoying and actually kind of painful to listen to. A joke was that all these major studios put big $$$ in recording equipment and recording time only to have it their songs digitally smashed to death to sound good on the radio (where they have to compress it some more). That's where all the hi tech innovation loses most people with common sense.
I see a technological silver lining with technology that will increase bandwidth and with digital storage space getting cheaper and cheaper, I don't think it will be long before mp3 encoding is a thing of the past.
Also, I see a lot of young people rocking full sized earphones lately. My Grados with my iRiver mp3 player (with mp3's encoded @ >= 227 kbp) sounds good enough for me when I am on the run. I have heard some Shure earbuds that sounded pretty sweet too. Good enough for hi-fidelity sounds while jogging at least.
Paul: aren't those the same themes that have been recurring throughout history? Maybe there is just less finesse in the execution nowadays... |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 6:12:44 PM
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quote:
only to have it their songs digitally smashed to death to sound good on the radio (where they have to compress it some more).
Actually, it is relatively well known that MORE dynamic material sounds better on the Radio!. The Orban box (compressor / limiter) that almost ALL radio stations have, compresses, EQ's, limits, (and sometimes adds reverb) exactly the way the stations want. If an already compressed mix goes thru this chain, it results in sounding EVEN WORSE (in all cases).
The reason the Loudness War continues is becase of Cheap Playback units, playback in Cars, and use of iPods with headphones (reference to Mark's Links). Only really, really stupid producers would squash a mix for Radio. (Of course, there are lots of really stupid producers)  I.M.H.O.
(Remember I have to stay Grumpy or loose my place in line)
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/02/2008 6:15:44 PM |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 10:19:35 PM
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i should have put good in quotations:
only to have it their songs digitally smashed to death to sound "good*" on the radio (where they have to compress it some more).
*(and by "good" i only mean as LOUD as the songs that come on before it and after it during normal airplay.) |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 09:10:30 AM
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*(and by "good" i only mean as LOUD as the songs that come on before it and after it during normal airplay.)
Ah... Yes... but that is where you are misunderstanding. After going thru the Orban unit a highly dynamic recording will sound just as loud and the highly squashed recording! The Orban takes care of this - it brings the average RMS of ALL material to the same level. The main difference is that the more dynamic original will sound cleaner and less distorted than the already smashed recording. This is partly because the dynamics of the Orban are different than the mastering compressors AND the smashed material is getting smashed TWICE. But the Loudness of the two different sources will be THE SAME after they come out of the Radio compressor-limiter due to the automatic level (loudness) control. (This the main reason these machines are used - to get maximum modulation of the carrier). By assuming that the already compressed material will sound any louder on the Radio you are making the same mistake that ill informed producers do. (Read the material from Bob Katz and others and you will see that this is the case)
This depends a little bit on how the Orban (or equivalent) is set up. Classical stations actually set their compressor thresholds somewhat higher to allow more dynamic range, but POP music stations (i.e. everyone else) almost always use exteme settings.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/03/2008 09:16:24 AM |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 12:51:09 PM
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I think that the current goal is to be perceived as louder, not necessarily actually have a greater magnitude on a scale of dB. From what I understand, heavily compressed audio can fool your brain into thinking that the volume is louder than it is. So basically, they want the finished product to sound "louder" by heavily compressing it when in reality they are just smashing the dynamic range. I think I understand this correctly.
So they smash it to increase the perceived loudness and then the radio station, as is normal for radio transmission, compresses more to maximize modulation for transmission. I understand that the transmission signal level will not be higher, but on the other end the user will perceive it as louder. |
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Larry Goldstein
Lokahi
267 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 1:30:46 PM
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I confess to being so un-savvy about the portable and recording technology today that I can hardly follow what you’re writing about. But thanks for affirming my sense that we’re in danger of losing overtones, not to mention discrimination, or acute hearing. Count me in as a grumpy guy.
Larry - survivor of The Who innumerable Greatful Dead shows
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 2:48:43 PM
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Actually, and Lawrence can correct me, as I know, and hope, he will, it is not *just* smashing with compression. I can screw up a good recording/take in just the same way, by doing a "group" normalization which normalizes the RMS (average, basically, but, OK = Root Mean Square) volume to a desired level. Katz recommends -18 db, but Keola's and Naukilo's great recordings that I have ripped are closer to -16 db, BUT they, especially Keola's, have a *used* dynamic range of very close to the max of a 16 bit CD - in the mid 60 dbs.
Anyway, there are various ways of making your music loud when it needs to be, or overall loud so that it stinks. I can think of a few more ways of screwing up the dynamic range of a recording, because, I have done it.
I have sworn off crude normalization. (BTW, Fran's use of HarBal has changed my mixmastering life. Earle *hates* normalization.)
Also, the performance is key. If the artist does not vary dynamics expressively, you don't have anything to work with.
I hate it when all the really smart engineers talk about screwing with toms or micing the cabs of distorted electric guitars.
...Reid |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 4:22:56 PM
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I understand that the transmission signal level will not be higher, but on the other end the user will perceive it as louder.
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Wrong... It is NOT perceived as louder at all. That is the whole point.
Louder mastered CDs DO NOT SOUND LOUDER on the Radio!
They are simply NOT perceived as louder! (in many demonstrated tests according to the links above)
Pyschoacoustically. the RMS level is the major determiner of perceived loudness followed by high and low frequency equalization applied (i.e. the classic Fletcher-Munson curves). Multiband compression as used in Mastering and also contained in the Orban devices, does both EQ and compression/limiting at once and it's job is to make sure that the radio program material has equal perceived loudness (regardless of the level of compression of the source).
Louder mastered CD's/tracks DO sound louder on boomboxes, iPods, stereos and other such devices that do not have automatic program levelers, BUT NOT ON THE RADIO! 
And this brings up one way this problem can be solved: Include automatic program levelers or compressors into the end-user equipment. Some equipment, such as my DVD player at home, and also the radios in some Lexus models already contain a compressor. In the case of My DVD this compressor is turned on by choosing the "NIGHT" mode on DVD playback which then restricts the dynamic range using a digitially implemented compressor. The Analog or Digital circuits to do this would add less than $1 cost to end-user equipment (more likely less than 25cents). This way you could turn off the compression and enjoy the full dynamic range, or turn it on when you are at the spa, or jogging, or in the car. But the way things are now, the producers are permanently damaging the music just so some people in noisy environments, with lousy equipment (or with NO SENSE OF MUSICAL TASTE) are happy.
GROWL......
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/03/2008 4:38:17 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 01:43:27 AM
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| OK Lawrence. We dig. We agree. Now how to make better? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 10:33:49 AM
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Wcerto, probably the only way to make it better as an individual is to turn off the radio and listen to album's made before 1990 or so. I don't really know.
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Yes... You finally got it!!
Unfortunately that seems to be more and more about all you can do. So will I avoid the next Dancing Cat release because is it too compressed? Probably not, because there will be no other way I can aquire the material, so I will play it and try to imagine how good it could have sounded.
This is why I am so Grumpy or Depressed about this issue...
There is a chance of changing this if the majority of Music Consumers get all-riled up and start returning their purchases as defective (if overcompressed), and writing to the labels with complaints, and having million-person marches in Washington, etc, etc!!!
P.S. thanks for posting the new links (excellent material), It is too bad that a lot of Commercial Music Producers don't bother to read or even understand this material, they just want it to "go to eleven".
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/04/2008 11:08:04 AM |
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