| Author |
 Topic  |
|
kealii
Aloha
USA
39 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2008 : 11:15:53 PM
|
| Auwe vpochris ... wheres the aloha? I agree with javeiro, KaneKihoalu, wcerto and others - and no amount of name calling or finger pointing by you will change that. Lets stick to the slack key and leave the self righteousness at the door with the rubba slippas. Peace bro. |
"Geevum ... one more time!" (Gabby) |
 |
|
|
ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 04:31:26 AM
|
Sorry about that- I get a little carried away when I feel passionate about something. Name calling is certainly not appropriate, and I blame our government and industry, not individuals, that some people in this country still deny what the entire world has accepted as reality.
Chris
|
|
|
|
Daryl
Aloha
USA
28 Posts |
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 10:01:16 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by ypochris
Are you willing to sacrifice the future of humanity for your pleasures today? I am not; my grandchildren deserve to have grandchildren of their own.
We did not inherit this planet from our ancestors; we are borrowing it from our descendents.
Frankly, I'm in ypochris's court on this one. When we talk about whether we are arrogant enough to think humanity can have such an effect on the earth, that tends to keep the focus on individuals of the present day. We need to remember that we are talking about a cumulative effect of millions of humans over a century or more of industrialized societies.
Each day, we learn more and more about how the way we utilize resources can be more harmful, more destructive, more toxic than we knew when we started. Pesticides, fuels, chemicals - all things that we have developed with the intention of making the world a better place, and some have turned out to be dramatically dangerous, when viewed over a period of time.
This gorgeous planet is a living organism, just like your own body. We are all aware of the things that we do to our bodies that we enjoy at the time, but we recognize the damage we can do over the course of our lives - smoking, fats, medications, refined sugars and so on. If we are fortunate, we get a warning - an opportunity to adjust our behaviors and extend our lives. If we are not so fortunate - or worse yet, we choose to ignore the warnings - poof! Our time is over.
Sometimes, we find the strength to correct these behaviors without having suffered any harm or pain. Are we at that point with Mama Gaia? Or will we need to suffer dramatically first? Or have we already suffered the early warnings, but are going ahead blindly? When comes the planetary "poof"?
~~~~~~~~~~
P.S.) Another way to view it - we'll never know for certain if the scientists who espouse making changes to decrease the slow of global warming are completely correct or not, so play a logic game...
Question #1) Suppose they are not: what harm is done by finding alternative energy sources, cutting back on our use of non- or not-very-renewable resources, and making the "green" changes in our lifestyles?
Question #2) Suppose they are correct: if we do not make changes, do we need to even consider the harm? To paraphrase Richard Gere's character in "An Officer & A Gentleman," when asked why he was even staying in the military --- "I got no place else to go." Can't pop down to the Planet Mall and pick up an Earth 2.0, can you?
The risk we face by doing little or nothing is too high. |
Edited by - Retro on 03/04/2008 10:21:25 AM |
|
|
|
kealii
Aloha
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 2:08:13 PM
|
Retro ... let me comment on the logic piece.
You state that "we'll never know for certain" if the global warming scientists are correct or not. If you take that position logically then your ending statement that the risk of doing little or nothing is "too high" has no bearing precisely because "we'll never know for certain" - and therefore we cannot determine the level of risk associated with neglecting their warnings. In this case we can only say that there is a general risk involved - as there is when we get up out of bed every morning. Now if a logical analysis of all "facts" associated with this debate does determine a level of certainty, then we can estimate the level of risk.
As for Question #1, I am all for alternative energy sources - especially if they help me to become less dependant on anyone and allows me greater freedom of choice. But when one group of peoples opinions about something limits my freedom or places more burdens upon me, then I am concerned. And when those opinons are escalated to disdain or prejudice towards those not holding the same opinion - then I suspect that logic is not what this is all about.
Anywhooo ... how bout that Gabby Pahinui? :-) |
"Geevum ... one more time!" (Gabby) |
|
|
|
ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 5:23:14 PM
|
Gabby is the best ever, and there are currently 2061 other topics on this forum alone mostly devoted to slack key and Hawaiian music. This one is about global warming, although the proper term is catastrophic climate change- "global warming" is the warm and fuzzy version, especially in the winter...
The consensus of scientists and governments aroung the world is that catastrophic climate change is real, and a serious problem we must act on now to mitigate. The United Nations has overcome a powerful lobby by major polluters, most especially our current government, and billions of dollars spent by industry to approve a strongly worded (but still severely watered down from what the world's scientists wanted to say, due to "political considerations") report on the current and probable future effects of the carbon dioxide we are emitting into our atmosphere. Consider this alone: as the CO2 levels rise in the oceans, the depth at which calcium carbonate dissolves rises. Shells, corals, and the casing of many if not most plankton are composed of calcium carbonate. Marine biologists wonder if the level of CO2 already in the atmosphere will eventually cause our reefs to dissolve- along with the plankton that is the basis of the aquatic food chain, disrupting a primary sourse of the oxygen we breathe.
Risk-benefit analysis does not require any level of certainty. When the risk is extinction of the human race, and the cost is a relatively minor restructuring of our economy, and perhaps a little less consumption from those few who consume half the world's resources, it seems like a no brainer. The cost to you is going to be less than you pay for auto insurance. The cost to petroleum companies, coal producers, and major polluters will be enormous. But the world's largest industry, the insurance industry, is pushing hard for action, because the cost of doing nothing is already looking to bankrupt them. THEY have done the risk-benefit analysis, they are the experts at that! Which is perhaps the only reason anything is being done in this country...
Our country's choices are placing huge burdens on the world, and limiting the freedom of some peoples even to exist- again, I point to Kiribati, an entire country expected to disappear beneath the waves in a generation. But I suppose our freedom to engage in excess consumption is far more important. And the disdain and prejudice much of the world feels towards us for our uncaring greed has nothing to do with the fact that we consume five times our share of the world's resouces and could care less what effect our "freedom" to do this (usually enforced at gunpoint)has on the rest of the world- no, it has nothing to do with logic or our actions and attitude. It is just because they are jealous of our wealth that they think we should pay for trivial stuff like breathable air that they produce.
Chris
|
|
|
|
slackpup
Aloha
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 06:03:27 AM
|
Whatever the time frame for the effects of global warming to become problematic, it seems to me that we can all take some commonplace steps to reduce the pollution that we (mostly innocently) visit on the planet. Recently I discovered a form of pollution I had never considered before. I received a catalog in the mail from the Republic of Tea (I highly recommend their teas, BTW). On the back cover it proudly stated the the catalog was printed on recycled paper, thereby saving 659 fully-grown trees, 454,270 gallons of water, 527 million BTUs of energy, 30,844 pounds of greenhouse gases and was manufactured with biogas energy. I started thinking about all the catalogs I receive weekly that don't seem to be printed on recycled paper and wondering what their pollution/carbon footprints were. As a result, I have started calling the companies that send out unsolicited materials and asking to be taken off their lists. All have been very happy to comply, especially when I told them I was most likely to look up their products on the Internet than find them in a catalog. It's a small step but could have some beneficial results if the practice could become widespread. It should also be noted that the high price of postage in this country is partly a result of the cheap rates that are charged for delivery of these items.
BTW this probably should be your second step; the first would be to register with some service like http://www.catalogchoice.org/. This is a free service that should get rid of catalogs from folks with whom you have no ongoing relationship (i.e. people from whom you have not ordered products).
I hope that gives Taro Patchers something to think about.
Donald Hull |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 07:39:55 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by kealii
You state that "we'll never know for certain" if the global warming scientists are correct or not. If you take that position logically then your ending statement that the risk of doing little or nothing is "too high" has no bearing precisely because "we'll never know for certain"
Can you ever know "for certain" that your house will burn down, or that your car will get hit, or that you will become severely ill? No - but you take steps to prepare for those possibilities (take out insurance, buy smoke alarms, drive defensively, visit a doctor). You can, as you noted, calculate the risks of these events. Well, the calculations have been made regarding global warming - the signs are already occurring, and should not be ignored any further. As for my "certainty" comment about the science, it relates to how far the predictions are accurate; but some of the predictions, made a decade or more ago, have already proven to be true.
quote:
But when one group of peoples opinions about something limits my freedom or places more burdens upon me, then I am concerned.
Our society tends to function under a wide range of laws, social mores & restrictions that limit the freedom of or place burdens upon individuals every day. Do they all make you concerned? I suspect that some do (and probably should), but that you are comfortable functioning under most of them.
I also suspect that you accept most of these types of restrictions placed upon you, even if they might be individually burdensome from time to time, because you are comfortable with what we generally call "the common good" - you are likely quite capable of recognizing that there are situations where you will give up a level of personal preference, so that the community at large can benefit.
quote:
And when those opinons are escalated to disdain or prejudice towards those not holding the same opinion - then I suspect that logic is not what this is all about.
I don't believe I expressed any disdain against opposing perspectives. If others did, fine, but don't project that upon my postings, please.
quote:
Anywhooo ... how bout that Gabby Pahinui?
He's downright magical. We can talk about him all over this board. Fortunately, this particular section, known as "Talk Story," is a catch-all for any topic. As the front page states: "On topic? Off topic? No mattah! Come share your experiences of Hawaiian music, culture, or whatever in this informal talk story forum." No need to try to steer this particular discussion back to ki ho`alu. |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 08:42:23 AM
|
| I LOVE free and open discourse. You guys are all so well-read and knowledgeable. Opposing points of view are well presented. And everyone is pono. Don't get much better than this. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 11:28:37 AM
|
| I like reading/hearing points-of-view that respectfully oppose mine (as did kealii's); I always learn from them. |
|
|
|
kealii
Aloha
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 1:01:56 PM
|
It is interesting that you both interpreted my Gabby reference as an attempt to steer things away from the subject. My intent was to end with a connection that I think we share - that is the Pono thing to do. The polynesian cultures cherish the connections, in spite of the fact that we sometimes have wide disagreements internally. This is how we can live together in the tight spaces of an island. Its not perfect, but celebrating connections goes a long way.
Your arguments are passionate - and that is good for you. Will they change my thinking on the matter? No. Can I respond with information that contradicts? Most definitely (as I salivate over huge holes that I would love to drive through). But for what purpose? We just plain disagree.
Which brings me back to Gabby Pahinui ... a master. I am sure we can all agree on that! |
"Geevum ... one more time!" (Gabby) |
|
|
|
javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 1:16:54 PM
|
kealii, you make a very good point. People could cite all kinds of articles and studies to support their point of view but what would it change? This is a subject that many people on both sides of the issue are very passionate about but they won't change their view after reading a few lines on a forum. And it does seem to come up on just about every forum I frequent for all of my various interests.
By the way......where is Kapila Kane? He's the one who started this discussion! |
Aloha,
John A. |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 2:54:28 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by kealii
It is interesting that you both interpreted my Gabby reference as an attempt to steer things away from the subject.
You are correct - I obviously did misinterpret your comment; thanks for providing additional guidance.
You and I don't have to be of a similar mind on this topic to play and enjoy music together - and so we shall. |
|
|
|
Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 3:18:55 PM
|
Slackpup, thanks for the URL to catalogchoice. I am usually *very* concerned about sites that want my personal info, but we get so much 3rd and 4th class crap that I did it. I mean like 5 lbs a day. Which we recycle immediately. And will continue to do it until and unless they bite me on the ass. Sarah has been calling vendors but that is so time and energy consuming that this is a better way.
I talk regularly to our postmen (they change as they bid on routes) and they *hate* the stuff and they *hate* their managers. The stories they tell me make me understand Going Postal.
(Now, just wait -- I'll get spammed or Chertoff will send me to Gitmo).
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 03/05/2008 3:20:39 PM |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 01:59:46 AM
|
| Gabby left plenty legacy for us -- in his recorded music and in his progeny. Not just Bla, Phillip, Cyril, Martin; but the mo`opuna as well. At least one plays slack key and has recorded. Martin says some of the others play rock & roll, but I'll bet eventually they will come back to the roots, to the kumu. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
