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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2008 : 5:00:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Yep. And if you die in debt... you win.
Hey, Mark......if you haven't already read it, check out a book called "Die Broke" by Stephen M. Pollan & Mark Levine. Pretty interesting reading!
Chris: Your formula only works in areas like yours where housing is cheap and the rental market is good. In many parts of the country, $28,000 isn't enough for a down payment and the remaining mortgage would be too high to be covered by what you could rent it for. You're quite fortunate that it works where you are. Being a long distance landlord is a royal PITA.
This reminds me of a housing tour I went on in Phoenix Arizona several years ago. A bus load of architects and builders were touring new model homes there and while walking through one of them, I made a remark to the person I was with about how much house you could get for this amount of money in Arizona as compared to Hawaii. A builder behind us overheard me and said "Where I come from (it was Tennessee) you wouldn't believe how many HOUSES you could get for this kind of money!" I guess, like they always say, it's all relative. |
Aloha,
John A. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 01:44:15 AM
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The conspicuous consumption is definitely a pox upon Americans. That is why I tell you that we finally just got a telephone that you do not have to climb the pole like on Green Acres. That is why I do not have caller ID. However, I am not clean, either. My past 4 or 5 cars, I have leased instead of buying. Here's how I figured it. I worked in very, very bad neighborhoods. It would be very bad to have a car break down and be stranded in one of those neighborhoods. I did not wish to keep a car until it fell apart under me. Since I did not wish to keep a car that long, I could not see cramming all the payments into a couple of years and then selling the car at a major loss after maybe 4 years or so. After about 50,000 miles stuff starts going wrong on a car...one thing after another. So, I decided to pay for only the amount of time that I wanted to drive the car -- hence leasing vs. outright buying. It has worked for me. Now that I am retired and I do not need to go into those bad areas any longer, I may rethink that strategy.
But, on the topic of conspicuous consumerism, many, many people in manym, many countries aspire to that way of living. That is why they don't like Americans. They are mostly jealous. We are not the only ones with disposable income. Look at the Japanese tourists in Waikiki. They are not at longs or Wal-Mart. They are buying Fendi, Coach, etc. That is why every store window in Waikiki is also written iin Japanese. The merchants are paying attention to their customers.
The part about being in an area where the houses are cheap and there is a demand for rentals, is right on. Lansing is might cold in the winter, Chris. You've already been telling us how much snow and how cold it has been. You don't see people beating the doors down to get to Lansing, Detroit, Ann Arbor or any other fun places in Michigan. Same thing for Ohio. That is why the houses are available and are so cheap. We have a neighbor across the street who has had their house on the market for probably 3 years. It sits vacant now, because they moved to their new house before this one sold. It is a swell house -- big, plenty of room. But nobody wants it for some reason. Plenty of houses for sale around here, but not plenty of buyers. Many times, people who get in financial trouble with a home, just walk away from it. They have invested so little...very low or no down payment, that it is not big thang to walk away and let the bank take it back. Blot on your credit report? No problem. Some other lender will be happy to jack up your interest rate and lend you money even if you are not a good credit risk.
Boils down to one major thing -- buying on credit. Don't do it. Young kids think a credit card is magic. Now you can get all the swell things you wanted when you were growing up. Oh, yeah. You can get them. Nobody is telling the young kids that they have to actually PAY for the stuff they charge on a credit card. They have a rude awakening. Since they were bad credit risks from the beginning, their iinterest rates were sky high and their minimum monthly payments do not come anywhere near reducing the principal -- not for a long, long time. A lender does not want you to pay off your debts. They just want you to pay the interest. That is the product they are selling to you when you use credit. We would not be in these financial woes if lenders maintained some type of standards for who was credit worthy. That is why goofy things like adjustable rate mortgages, balloon payments, etc. People bought into the fairy tale that was being told and now the wicked witch is extracting her revenge. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 09:53:45 AM
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Some cars fall apart after 50,000 miles but some cars allow for a degree of freedom. When we moved to America we sold the SL 500 and bought a Lexus and a Rabbit. The Lexus is a hybrid and is big enough to carry all my music stuff from gig to gig. The rabbit is used by the wife t carry her art work to and from the framers and the gallery coop where she hangs her stuff. When the Sl was purchased it was 2 yrs old and only had 17,000 mi. on it. Buying a certified preowned luxury car is a practical way to do it. We got to act like a spoiled rich cat without being a spoiled rich cat. The Rx series Lexus may be a Lexus but it is reliable has GS guidance which allows us togo to a lot of places and minimizes getting lost. The traction system and Variable FWD are all features that we felt we needed for our own safety. The Rabbit gets 34 MPG and we like that and it is a great runabout for our island. e originally considered a Smart car but the one available when we were looking were 27,000 dollars and two years old with brand new car mileage figures on the speedometers. Today Smart cars are available for 13,000 to 17,000 dolars but you gotta wait almost a year. That is just cars. We have a house on the water and we couldnʻt ask for more. We are retired and have basically paid our dues to live the way we do. But we donʻt abuse our credit cards. e use them in lieu of cash in many instances and pay them off in full when the bill comes. That way no interest payments accrue. It is getting ridiculously expensive for energy and gas though and food keeps going up . We spend over 100.00 everytime we visit the grocery store. However we do tend to buy organic. But you know what, we think it is OK to eat good food.
So Wanda what Iʻm trying to say is we set our priorities and we stick by them. We buy quality where it counts and we are frugal where it counts. I spend 20.00 on guitars strings then pay senior or matinee prices at movies. We donʻt spend money on Fendi or stuff like that but I have a pair of Prada shoes that I bought on sale.
And we wonʻt be moving to Lansing Michigan any time soon but we do visit Madison WI and Chicago Illinois and Providence Rhode Island and definitely most of the islands of Hawai'i. I will return to Aloha Music Camp and maybe someday the Kahumokuʻs event as well. We should just enjoy all the things life brings us the best we can.
I wish more power to you all and may our paths cross someday and we get to play in tune all the tunes that we know and love. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Rich_Smith
Lokahi
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 2:48:16 PM
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| Debt is the big enemy. We had a great feeling of freedom when the hale was paid off. I'm hoping I can get 200,000 miles out of my Camry, cause new cars are no investment. When it comes to organic food and music, my wallet opens wider. |
Rich Smith |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 3:43:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich_Smith
Debt is the big enemy. We had a great feeling of freedom when the hale was paid off.
I hear you loud and clear, Rich! I can't remember how many years it's been since we had a mortgage or car payment and it feels even better now that I'm finally retired for real. |
Aloha,
John A. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 02:15:05 AM
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| It is way swell to have no house payment! When we first bought our house in 1975, it cost $33,900. We did not put a down payment - we bought with a GI loan. Our house payment was about $350/month and that included taxes and homeowners insurance that went into an escrow account. And back then, that $350 was s mighty struggle sometimes. But eventually, we had friends who had $1,000 or more per month house payments. Hah! That made our little ranch style house seem a lot more attractive. Not that I wouldn't like to have a nicer, bigger, newer house, but, for the money, I'd rather spend it differently, like on trips to Hawai`i. We cannot afford to do both. All that played a part in deciding to retire at age 55. To me it was worth it, not having to go to work every day. And not having to work for another10 or 12 years. I'm so broken down now, sheesh, I do not even know if I could have worked much longer. Full retirement is better than the civil service disability retirement, by a long shot. Now if we can just get Pa Kettle to be able to retire. Soon, soon. We just have to be patient a while longer. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 04:27:43 AM
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Never had a house payment before, or any type of debt- we bought our farm in Waipi'o in 1980 when everyone thought Waipi'o was a hell hole unfit for human habitation- we paid $18,000 for almost four acres. I bult my house one room at a time as I had money- modular style octagons that fit together in to a big octagon of eight rooms with a courtyard in the middle. A bit crowded at first! But no debt.
Now I have discovered the capitalist theory- you make money using other people's money. I have tons of debt but renters make the payments for me, with enough extra to cover the payments on my own house. The more I borrow and invest, the more money comes in each month. And with the dollar in free fall, that money I borrow becomes easier to pay off every year.
What you do NOT want to do is borrow money and spend it on junk! To invest or start a business, yes- to consume, NO!
By the way, back on topic, in spite of what our unelected "president" would like us to believe, all the indicators say that the recession has already arrived. We are in a classic period of "stagflation", where costs of goods rise but wages and output don't- an ugly economic situation due to the reckless spending of the Republican government- not least on this stupid war that has created a new haven for terrorists where none were before (in Iraq). Mr. Bush (I can't call someone who was not elected "President Bush")said the war was going to be "self financing"- in other words, we were going in to steal the oil. Now the best guess is that the total cost will be at least three trillion dollars- ten thousand dollars from every man, woman, and child in America. Borrowed from our great friend China. Do you feel safer now?
Chris
Chris
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 05:05:34 AM
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Like it or not, the US economy has always flourished off of provisioning the Defense Department (or War Department many years ago). I am certain there is not a single person alive in this country who would not be detrimentally affected if Defense spending ceased. From entire weapons systems to the smallest shim, washer, screw or rivet, someone makes the stuff and someone gets paid to do so. Lockheed Martin and General Electric are huge, huge, huge organizations that in effect own the U.S. However, their suppliers, and the suppliers' suppliers and on down, keep peoples' bellies fulll and keep the rain and snow off their backs. If someone wasn't making money off Defense, then they wouldn't be able to buy cars. Then the auto workers would have even less stability than they do now. Tis a vicious circle that cannot be stopped now. Peace is a lovely idea, but impractical as regards the economy.
Big Defense Contractor
Primary suppliers
secondary suppliers
tertiary suppliers
even suppliers for paper, tape, packaging materials, telephone service, computers
Taxicabs to take businessmen to the airport
The doctors who treat the businessmen for stress,
The medicine makers, the medical supply companies,
the suppliers to those guys,
then the suppliers to those guys.
The producer of uniforms that the medical folks wear;
The outfit that is contracted to provide food at a hospital;
The farmer who grows that food.
The teacher who teaches the farmer's kids.
The college who traiined the teacher.
You see...it all depends on federal spending, primarily for Defense. And Defense takes way more than weapons, tanks, planes, bombs. It takes toilet paper and paper clips and rubber bands. It takes lumber and mortar and bricks. It takes fabric and chemicals and coal and gasoline and diesel. It takes medicines. It trains doctors in emergency procedures. Trauma specialists have learned much because of wars. Triage came about as a result of wars.
What if they gave a war and nobody came? Everybody would starve. Except maybe the farmer guy. But everyone else would be coming after him to take what he had. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 03/15/2008 05:06:22 AM |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 05:33:19 AM
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Very well said, Wanda, and I agree with you 200%! Where would Hawaii be if it weren't for defense spending? Everyone rails against war but if it weren't for war in the first place this country wouldn't be here today. I think too many Americans either have their heads in the sand or just don't realize that radical Islamists, which makes up most of the terrorist world, will never just go away and leave us alone. They want us off the face of this earth. Like the saying goes......freedom isn't free.
The recession, if it is here, is spotty. As I said before, here in Washington you'd never know it. The democratic controlled local government is spending money like it's going out of style and looking for new ways to raise taxes. Unemployment here is really low and homes are still selling. Te same is true in some other parts of the country. |
Aloha,
John A. |
Edited by - javeiro on 03/15/2008 05:41:36 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 06:18:24 AM
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Well, Hawai`i might still be a sovereign nation, for one. Pearl Harbor was what enticed U.S. to care about Hawai`i. After whaling was pau, after sugar cane was pau, after pineapple farming was pau, Hawaiian economy depends so much on Defense and tourism. Either or, not much else available.
Hind sight is always 20-20.
Now what we have to do is make Hawaiian music the top money making product to come out of Hawai`i. Then peace would reign. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Momi
Lokahi
402 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 06:46:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich_Smith
When it comes to organic food and music, my wallet opens wider.
I love organic music, Rich! Esp. when it comes from one of your organic 'ukulele! ;-)
Seriously speaking, though (can I actually do that?), my mom raised me with the philosophy that "any idiot can spend money; it takes brains to save it." That said, I agree with Al and Rich - save money where's it's sensible, and prioritize about how you want to spend your money.
One distinction that Japanese people draw between those from Kyoto and those from Osaka is Kyoto people will eat cheap food in order to lavish themselves with beautiful silk kimono while Osaka people will wear plain cotton and wool in order to splurge on food. Although I lived in Kyoto, I always followed Osaka-ites' preferences. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 07:13:08 AM
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Yep - priorities. That equates to limiting one's self. Folks get in trouble when they want and try to obtain it all. Unless you are Bill Gates, you cannot have everything you want, at the time you want. Plain and simple. You makes your choices.
I learned squeezing pennies from my Mom. She did not like to buy anything on credit. At one time they had to buy a house full of cheap, rickety, rip-off furniture and went into debt for it. Her whole being at that time was centered around getting "out of debt". She was very upset at having to buy the cheap junk (couldn't afford better), and worse yet paying the dreaded "finance charges". There are lots of companies who do business in shoddy goods and services at exhorbitant interest rates just because many times poor folks have no other option. Anyhow, my mom went to nursing school when she was 40 years old, when I was in 10th grade. She worked her way from cleaning lady to nurses's aide to nurse. When she was diagnosed with colon cancer at age 50, she learned how to drive and bought a car, paying cash for it. The salesman was quite taken aback by a customer buying a brand new car and writing a check for it. She saved her kala until she had what she needed to buy what she needed (and by then, what she WANTED). However, it seems so sad to me that my mom never really lived until she knew she was dying. She died at age 53. She taught me many lessons -- ones to emulate and ones that I do not wish to emulate. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 3:13:50 PM
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Interesting how the topic went from the economic necessity of war to Japan. Japan is a classic example of a country that has developed one of the strongest economies in the world in very short time, and most agree that in large part this was due to minimal defense spending. Look around the world. Which country is the richest overall? Switzerland, with a long history of avoiding conflict. Which is the wealthiest country in Central America? Costa Rica, which outlawed it's army. Which countries have the highest per capita income in Asia? Singapore and Brunei, both countries that do not support an army.
Now look to the poorest countries in the world- most are in Africa. Ethiopia, Somalia, Chad- all have a long history of massive defense spending. And the list goes on. Making something to explode or throw away in another country is not a sound basis for an economy- these things have to be paid for by the citizens of the country, they give nothing back to those citizens, and the money to pay for them does not magically appear in the pockets of those who make them, it is money taken out of other people's pockets that could have gone to better use. War contributing to the economy is a myth- logically impossible. It was taking America off the gold standard and printing masses of paper money without real value that caused the economic boom of world war two, combined with a massive recycling program and conservation through rationing.
Maintaining a National Guard, sufficient military to defend your country and discourage attack, is common sense. WW II showed that with a justifiable cause, Americans are willing and able to massively mobilize and address any threat. Maintaining a standing army that costs more than the rest of the world combined spends on the military is the fast track to economic ruin, and we are heading down it with the pedal to the metal. And to top it all off, all we have done with this military might is create more terrorists, and more hatred towards the U.S. than has ever existed. We didn't catch Bin Laden, the Taliban is as strong as ever, and all our energy is diverted into a country that never posed a threat to the U.S- after all, Saddam Hussein may have been an evil murderous dictator, but he was OUR evil murderous dictator... |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 3:23:28 PM
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| Yeah and as for the benefit of Hawai'i I wonder which Hawai'i is that. If the military didn't take an interest would the USA have stolen it from Hawai'i's original Gov't.? Would the Japanese have bombed Pearl Harbor if there was no military base. Hawai'i might have been just as well off if the military was not there. The reason the US has such a strong military is to support its imperialistic policies which were established since the time they attacked the first First Inhabitants villages. The idea that the US military protects freedom is ludicrous. Does no one see that to keep America free it must oppress others. The physical enforcement to maintain American policy in the world tends to foment the anger and hatred that is displayed toward the US. I'm not opposed to defense but its silly to have to defend ourselves when we make the trouble in the first place. Today's war posture is bankrupting the country and its no safer than before. Our basic freedom has been eroded to the point where telephone companies face litigation for invasion of privacy. So how can anyone think that our freedom is being protected when we now live in fear of our own government? People are not allowed to fly if they are wearing the "wrong" kind of T shirt. The true terrorist to the Hawaiian Nation is in fact the US military-industrial complex who saw Hawai'i as a thing to be taken and reshaped to provide economic opportunity to capitalists who destroyed a relatively peaceful nation that was struggling to survive among the super powers of the day. The trend today is to misuse and abuse power to the extent that this country can never turn its back on its friends as well as it enemies. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Rich_Smith
Lokahi
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2008 : 4:14:20 PM
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| America as a democracy - that's an illusion. People elect the government who then serves big business and the military/industrial complex. This government would like to kill social programs, but at the same time they continue to give handouts and subsidies to big business. Other countries are invaded or their governments are subverted to protect the interests of big American business whether it be Dole, United Fruit Company, oil companies etc. The free trade deals are another form of subversion - countries give up some of their sovereignty to international courts. These agreements are fine as long as they work in favor of American. How many times has Canada taken the US to court over illegal duties that the US has imposed illegally on softwood lumber. Every time Canada the court has ruled in favor of Canada. Many of us hope for the day when this country will become more civilized and truly democratic. |
Rich Smith |
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