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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2008 : 01:49:41 AM
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The illusion is that we have elected this government. Doesn't anyone care, or even remember, that Bush lost Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004? Meaning he stole both elections, and has never in fact been elected.
Chris
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 07:50:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ypochris
The illusion is that we have elected this government. Doesn't anyone care, or even remember, that Bush lost Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004? Meaning he stole both elections, and has never in fact been elected.
It happens all the time! The same thing happened with our governor here in Washington......they just kept recounting until they got the result they wanted. |
Aloha,
John A. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 08:12:11 AM
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Well, the electoral college thing is a bit goofy, if you ask me. It started back in the days when you had to be a male property owner, with a certain income level. I think the property that you had to own was a slave. Otherwise,. you were not considered smart enough to know how to vote properly and effectively. Nowawdays, if you vote for Hilaray for president and she does not win the primaries enough to get delegate votes at the convention, well, too bad. You do not get to vote for Hilary for pres. Or whoever. Should be that a vote is a vote is a vote. Popular vote should get the winner. Then, I think the second place person should be the vice president, regardless of Republican or Democrat or whatever party (well, except for Dennis Kucinich).
Back to the recession. I just read that lenders giving subprime loads startred out believing that a 40% default rate was to be expected as a cost of doing business, but because they charged such exhorbitant interest rates, it was considered a great money maker. It was for a brief moment. But more than those 40% started defaulting and those who were buying the debt from the lenders started to get spooked. Even though there are areas of the country where housing values have not fallen and houses are selling well, there are more than enough depressed areas such as Ohio and Michigan, especially, where the default rates are considerably higher than average, home prices are stagnant or receding, unemployment rates are higher and people just cannot afford to buy houses. Lenders who were writing loans for these people who they KNEW would default were making money hand over fist and worked even harder to write as many of those loans as they could. Trouble is they got WAY greedy. The unscrupulous enlisted phoney tactics -- overstating the value of a home by an appraiser friend who was in collusion; mis-stating the persons income, outrigt total fraud by makiing up peoples names and histories, etc. That is what ALWAYS happens when someone tries to hard too long to milk the system. Same thing in 1929. Greedy Smurfs, all of them! |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 08:33:11 AM
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I'm not sure if I'd like to chime in on three recent topics: Bush/elections, recession and global warming. Or have a root canal with a screwdriver.
You're harshin' my mellow, dude(s).
Jesse Tinsley |
Edited by - hapakid on 03/18/2008 08:35:52 AM |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 08:50:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapakid
I'm not sure if I'd like to chime in on three recent topics: Bush/elections, recession and global warming. Or have a root canal with a screwdriver.
You're harshin' my mellow, dude(s).
Jesse Tinsley
That's really funny, Jesse. If you want to chime in for the fun (???) of it, that would be fine, but if you expect to convince someone to change their opinion it would be an exercise in futility in my opinion! With my various interests I regularly visit a few different forums and they all seem to have at least one thread like this one. |
Aloha,
John A. |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 11:15:23 AM
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Thanks, JA. Yep, eventually, every forum gets a political or environmental thread going that people can jump on and throw out opinions that don't mean much to the topic at hand. I read those elsewhere and just like to think about the beauty of the music and the calm it brings.
Jesse |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 12:06:04 PM
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I think the default rate on subprime mortgages is more like 5%, not over 40%. A fair number of these went to legitimate investors (including myself) whose DTI was too high to qualify for a conforming loan but the property was income producing. These loans are still good. The problems came from speculators, who bought counting on appreciation that never happened (note the difference between speculators, who buy on hope, and investors, who buy based on current income), and individuals who wanted a bigger house than they could afford.
The real problem was that regulators allowed firms to package these notes and sell them to entities who had no idea what they were purchasing- they would be told the notes were good when the sellers were perfectly aware that many were rubbish. I feel no pity whatsoever for the lenders and mortgage brokers who originated these loans, or for the people who took out the loans- they all knew what they were doing. It is the owners of mutual funds, retirement plans, and other institutional investments who were put into this "toxic waste" without their knowledge or consent that deserve to be reimbursed or bailed out- ideally with the money of the lenders who approved and sold the loans rather than with taxpayer monies. Let those who profited pay the cost, even if it bankrupts them- this will remove the temptation for others to follow their lead in the future.
And if you borrowed money to buy a house you couldn't afford, lying about your income or geting an adjustable rate mortgage that you can't pay even though interest rates are far lower than anyone could have hoped- oh well. You made your bed, now lie in it. Don't expect me to pay for your improvidence.
The funny thing is that even as the speculators whine, the investors I know all agree that this is the best real estate market we have ever seen, or are likely to see. Homebuyers with good credit now find that they can afford a far nicer house than they had ever dreamed. And homeowners can protest their assessments and see a dramatic reduction in their taxes. It is only people trying to SELL a house that are hurting, and mostly it is banks trying to sell foreclosures that resulted from their lending practices. Let 'em hurt! The lower home prices go, the easier it is for all us folks to become homeowners- and if we already are homeowners, it just keeps us from borrowing any more money on those homes (who needs more debt anyway?) and makes it cheaper to move up into something nicer.
Chris
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 1:12:06 PM
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| Chris, this is the best explanation I have seen anywhere about what is going on with the collapse of the sub prime mortgage world right now and I'm in thorough agreement with you that the government shouldn't be bailing them out. Why should the rest of us taxpayers pay for solving a problem that we had no part in creating and could have been easily avoided if everyone, (buyers, lenders, appraisers, etc.) played by the rules? |
Aloha,
John A. |
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kealii
Aloha
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 4:52:51 PM
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Agree w/Chris and John. Why should the folks who were prudent have to pay for the folks that took the risk? And why should the Government bail out businesses who were all over this until it bit them in the butt.
A good article about how this whole thing got started can be found here:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10484557&pnum=0
Best blow by blow that I've seen yet.
Wanda ... had to laugh at your "Greedy Smurfs"!
As for me - I'm a positive pessimist who loves my country in spite of her weaknesses and am greatful that Hawaii is a part of the U.S.A. ;-) |
"Geevum ... one more time!" (Gabby) |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2008 : 5:10:07 PM
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All I know is slingin' mud ain't arguin', and it don't solve anything either. I'm not over educated, and I don't understand much about economics. I can balance the checkbook once in a while, though Wanda knows better than to let me any more. I do know if you pay on time, they don't pester you for their money. And if you pay ahead you save. If you pay cash,you save. I'm not going to worry about the repression, 'cause I can't stop it or change it. I'll just do my best during the bull market times to insulate myself from the bear market times. And let Wanda balance the check book. I'm with Jesse; this stuff's mashin' my marshmellow.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2008 : 5:56:09 PM
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Kealii, that article was quite interesting- I didn't realize that these mortgages were leveraged so heavily. Foreign investors alone put trillions into this, when there were only 600 billion in mortgages the investments were based on, so every default is greatly magnified. And the people who originated the idea of these securities immediately started shorting them when they became available, indicating a total lack of confidence in the value of the product they created. No wonder we are going under so deep- this hole was dug intentionally...
Paul- I paid cash for everything for almost my entire life, slowly moving ahead. But there is only so much taro leaf you can pick in an hour, and the back gets sore after 20 or 30 years (or 20 or 30 minutes for most people...). Putting other people's money to good and legitimate use is easy on the back and fills the wallet, while helping both those whose money it is and those you provide services for with the money. And the more we talk among ourselves to understand what these scam artists are doing to our economy, the less chance that one of us will lose everthing we worked so hard for to someone looking for the easy money no matter how many people they hurt.
Chris
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 07:45:15 AM
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| Remember the S&L bailout in the '80s because of deregulation? Same thing. Lack of stop signs and traffic lights = magnified stupid actions and accidents. Guidelines and regulations = guardrails on the mountain pass. No one learns, or rather, some learn and are still hurt by the unbeatable combo of greed, ignorance and ineptitude. |
Edited by - thumbstruck on 03/28/2008 07:46:20 AM |
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Rich_Smith
Lokahi
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 09:31:35 AM
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| Just more proof that big business can't be trusted to conduct their affairs in an honest way and for the benefit of its customers. Its unfortunate that big business must be regulated so that the spoils don't all go to the shareholders and the big buck executives. |
Rich Smith |
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Rich_Smith
Lokahi
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 09:33:02 AM
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| I should add that big business should have more regard for their employees as well. |
Rich Smith |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 03:58:27 AM
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Big business has no obligation to it's customers- in fact, a corporation has a legal obligation to maximize profit for the shareholders. Although a corporation is legally a "person", that personhood does not come with morals. The morals of a corporation are determined more by laws than by the managers, who are obligated to maximize profits. Thus regulation is essential to provide the "moral" framework under which the corporation must operate.
It is sad that our government is so determined to impose morals on the people, who have their own moral framework which they should be free to act under (freedom of religion), yet the government is totally opposed to imposing "morals" (regulations) on amoral or even immoral corporations.
Chris
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