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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2003 : 6:58:03 PM
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aloha all,
i normally play with alaska picks and a thumb pick, but after watching patrick landeza play (he's awesome...) and do these beautiful sweeps with his index finger, i decided to try going pickless.
it's really odd, although i'm starting to get the hang of it. for those of you who normally play with nekkid fingers, how do you hold your hand? do you try to pick 90 degrees to the strings? do you change about? how long are your fingernails? do you sometimes play with the fleshy part of your fingertips? do you ever use the, umm, rest pick, is it called? where after you pluck you let your finger come to rest on the next string? when you do a sweep, do you use your fingernail or the side of your finger?
any and all advice eagerly accepted,
keith
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Keith |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 8:42:45 PM
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I do not try to get my fingers 90 degrees to the strings, I let my hand assume the natural angle - roughly 45 degrees.
My nails are pretty short - facing the palm, I can barely see the edge of the nails peeking over the fingertips.
I use finger and nail, with the meat of the finger applying the main force and the nail flicking across the string on the follow through.
I never use a rest stroke, but that's because I'm lazy and undisciplined. Every fingerstyle teacher I've ever known stressed the importance of the rest stroke, and I'm pretty sure they're not ALL wrong.
I sweep in both directions - flesh and nail coming up, back of nail going down.
My thumb has a nice little callous on the side just below the corner of the nail, that's my "thumbpick."
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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BreezePlease
Akahai
Japan
86 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 9:11:00 PM
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Hi,
Interesting subject. Like Fran in the above, I also use nail and flesh for the upstroke. Hand position: probably a little more angle (positionally, I just relax the hand and let it asume a natural limp-wrist angle).
However, you might want to try a few different things, as much depends on the sound you're seeking. I happen to like that "fleshy" sound on the strings for slack key so I keep my fingernails (use 3 fingers and thumb to pick) pretty short; but I also know a lot of people that play all nail that sound just wonderful. Also on the advice of a friend, have started cutting the nail on a slight oblique angle sloping upward from the thumb-side of the nails (I normally cut/file the nails in roughly the same shape as the finger).
A couple of years ago I did a complete retread on right-hand technique, as I was not happy with the sound I was getting, or the progress I was making. Took 6 months to a year to show any results, and was one of the most frustrating undertakings I have done on the guitar. Can't count the times I was within a fingernail's width of chucking it all in...
Let us know how things come along.
-dean
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2003 : 10:55:12 PM
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Well, I play on a nylon string guitar, so it's not as rough on the nails. Once I work out a song, I don't usually think about my hand placement, strokes, etc. As I'm working out the piece I do at times try for different things. The placement, stroke, angle, speed, follow-trough actually do affect the tone. I can't hear this too much in fast pieces, but it is noticable on slow pieces. I do a lot of experimenting in the early days of learning/arranging a song. As to the technical stuff: For me, typically, you can see about a quarter inch of nail sticking up over the "pad." How I move my fingers depends on what I'm going for and the actual placement of the guitar. -- When I'm in my preferred position, very close to the "classical" position, my hand is probably about 45 - 55 degrees. I do shape my nail based upon my usual attack. It's a little rounded towards the thumb side, more flat across the center (but with a very gentle curve) and it drop off more steeply towards the little finger side. I just developed this based upon what felt best for me, but I attended a Master Class by John Williams, and my nail shape ended up close to his. I don't like a very pronounced bass, so I tend to use more flesh on my bass notes. Thumb nail is a gentle arc from the point at which the nail first protrudes on the "inside the body" side, curving up to a point about 2/3 through the nail, then it drops off sharply. (For me the bass should lay a foundation similar to the idea of a cantus firmus, and rest in the background, except when I use a more latin style of rhythm - and even there I prefer the bass to be secondary to the melody, and sometimes I really can play it that way) As to angle and attack, it also depends where along the strings I'm strumming and what sound I want. I'm a little more " square" when I want a crisper sound, more "oblique" for a "deeper, more resonant" sound. As to the "Rest stroke" - for me an essential part of playing - but it doesn't mean that the finger camps out on the upper string, pitches a hammok and takes a nap. "Resting" is probably the wrong word for it - especially if you're playing anything over 80 beats per minute. Strums and resquiedos are usually done with the nails - attacking the strings about half-way down the nail and letting them slide off, and holding the nail square or oblique depends upon how much "scratchey nail" sound I want.
All that being said - I think this is what I do, but I wouldn't be surprised if, when I get into a groove, I do something different. I try to focus on technique when I'm practicing, and let go of it when I'm playing. --
Of course, playing a solo in front of a dozen taropatch.net members is almost as scary as playing a solo for Keola Beamer -- in both cases I just consider my self very lucky to have the fingers attack the strings in any way possible.
Raymond
San Jose |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 01:00:09 AM
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I used to play with no nails; experimented with an occasional thumb pick; and then went just nails a year and a half ago. The length of my nails has varied but at the moment extend just slightly beyond the pad. Still struggle with a bout of how-many-finger schizophrenia but working towards thumb, index, middle, ring and slowly gaining confidence.
I’ve been thinking about proper right hand technique recently and have not quite come up with an answer either. I would say my thumb is getting close to a 90 degree attack and my other fingers more like 45 degrees.
I’m hoping that a photo is indeed worth a thousand words. In my not-so-expert opinion, I believe Keola Beamer, Ozzie Kotani and Daniel Ho have excellent right hand technique (thumb, index, middle, ring method).
Keola
Keola
Ozzie
Regarding the rest stroke, Daniel Ho explained in a workshop that the rest stroke is employed when trying to emphasize or accent a note. He had us pluck the 1st string with our index finger. We then plucked the 1st string and followed through with our plucking finger coming to rest on the 2nd string. You seem to get more leverage with the second way (rest stroke) resulting in more volume. Hope that makes sense in print. Personally, I am not skilled enough to use rest strokes.
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Mainkaukau
Lokahi
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 02:12:06 AM
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| Add another scratch for pickless playing. I usually play my best music when my fingernails are at the right length. Not to long and not to short. Definitly no edges. Recently, I tried playing with the "Alaska" piks because I kept breaking my nails. The piks are ok once you get use to them but it feels unnatural to me. I still practice with Piks just in case I have another "break nail" emergency. Anyone have any tips on how to strengthen fingernails? Maybe through diet or vitamin supplements? I use to play with the four finger technique in my younger days. I woke up one day and "Shaka!" I was a 3 finger picker/strummer. |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 03:00:38 AM
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MainKaukau! I had a friend of mine, slack key guitar player...Oh! Keoki Kahumoku! George's Son! He had his thumbnail strengthened at a nail-salon (manicurest!) You may want to check it out! For me, I do my own manicuring. I try not to grow my thumbnail too long, I keep it no more than 1/4 of an inch. I also use two sided fingernail files. One side grinds, and shapes, the other side is specially made to polish and clean.
Also, soaking it in dish-washing liquid, helps to strengthen them. My thumbnail I use for my bass-line..As for the rest of my fingers, usually I keep them at 1/8th of an inch long, but nicely trimmed and shaped. The fingers on my left hand, I keep them short. Otherwise they's end-up buzzing on the strings! I hope I helped!
slackkey (Bill Pellazar) |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 03:27:11 AM
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Hey Keith,
Slackkey Bill is so right about the 'nail salon'.
I agree with Fran on the picking technique. Mine is very similar. Flesh and nails for the attack, and often the backside of the nail for a sweep or downstroke. Fact is, not using picks opens up the possibility of different sounds/mutings/overtones, that are not nearly as easy to accomplish with picks.....I say not nearly, cause if you've heard the Bob Brozmans of the world play slack key, and he uses full finger picks ....you'll think they invented it.
I play a fair amout of bluegrass and blues. I generally use finger picks, especially when playing on my National resonator. Not always. It will depend on the mood and or the song itself.
That you are able to play so well with picks is a huge accomplishment in itself. Learning to play with them is often as difficult as learning to play in the first place.
Back to what Slackkey said. Don't underestimate the applied nails route. I would be very, very, make that extremely hard pressed to name a major slack key recording artist who does not use them.
You can do them yourself as slackkey says....very easy if you aint afraid of superglue....get a nice file in the nail section of the local drugstore. Hell, I've grown fond of 'Hawaiian Shine' 4 sided files. You know, Pink, blue, white, grey....They are the absolute best if you can find em.
I personally like the more muted sound of flesh, but hard dry skin, over nails. Sounds a bit gross no?
If you want a listen....check out John Nelsons piece. JWN on Taropatch. He is one of the nicest sounding guitarists I've heard who is able to switch between the hard dry attack, blended in with somewhat muted undertones from the fingers. Dead steady rhythm, alternating bright (nails) and muted (fingers) I think he submitted No Ka Pa, a piece by Keola Beamer.
Its all up to style. That you are able to play slack Key using finger picks, my hats off to you Keith.
Experiment with what makes your heart sing. Try not go grow accustomed to any particular style or technique. Always expand.
Anyway my friend, thats my advice.
PS....our weather beat the hell outta San Diegos today ! You guys all need to move up here....come to the dark side Keith. Come to the real California.
I killed my friggin laptop last Tuesday !!
Mike
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my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2003 : 3:40:23 PM
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As to strengthening nail, nutrition, etc -- I consulted traditional and "alternative" nutritioninsts, plus a couple of others "in the know" and the basic answer seems to be that nothing nutritionally can help strengthen nails for sure beyond a decent balanced diet. People swear by their "proven" formula, but 1) had no "evidence" to back it up and 2) when I gave them fair trials I saw no result. Most did say that long term use of hardeners or cyanoacrylics (which is used for gluing plastic nails) weakens the existing nail - so if you use them and plan to switch back, you'll have to let the nail grow out again. I have softer nails, so I find that keeping them shorter is better. Rounded edges are a MUST. I also wear a glove on my right hand when I do anything that might mess up my nails -- cvarying bagage in the airport, cleaning garages, laying tile, etc. I red that in a Chet Atkins interview, and it has worked for me for the past two years.
Raymond |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2003 : 9:17:16 PM
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aloha all,
what a wealth of information! sorry for the slow reply, it's that most wonderful time of the year, final's week!
dusty, i'll watch your fingers more closely the next time we get together. i think that i'm positioning my hand in a similar way. it's the same way that i hold it when i have my alaska picks on except for the thumb. too much on the side and i start to catch the edge of my nail, which makes an ugly sound.
fran and dean, since reading your messages, i'm trying to get more of the fleshy part on the string just to see what happens (i've been treating my nails as picks). you can get some different sounds this way.
raymond, did you take classical guitar lessons, or study them? keoki told me that the classic work of his uncle really helped him develop.
andy, the photos are *really* helpful. they look like the angle that dean and fran were describing. on the number fingers, with picks i use three fingers and the thumb, but it's quite a jump going pickless; i'm using the ring and middle a lot less. with picks, the ring finger seems good for getting a sharp pluck - the angle is good, but you have more degrees of freedom without the picks.
mainkaukau, since i started vitamin B, my nails have gotten thicker and less brittle. it was a noticable effect after several months (i guess i didn't run a double blind experiment, but i'm attributing it to B). i only tear nails when i fly - all that throwing bags around, i guess. maybe i'll try the glove approach that raymond mentions (i already look pretty weird).
hey bill, we're counting the days to seeing you again! dish soap, really? does it make them less brittle or really thicken them?
mike, bob brozman is amazing, isn't he. anyway, i use a plectrum when playing bluegrass, and just started with alaska picks when i started to fingerpick. i was learning some mississippi john hurt and went into maytan's in reno and asked the guy what kind of picks i should use, and he pulled out the alaska picks. i think that initally they allowed me to get a fuller tone, but i've hit some walls. for example, sometimes when playing with others i just want to strum, and so try a ukulele-like roll, and i get a clunk from the gaps in the pick. and, it seems harder for me to control volume with them. i do like the range of sounds nelson can get.
we have been getting the rain down here, we really need it, but it's cleared out and the flowers are going nuts from the earlier rains. i do miss northern california - i was in palo alto for nine years working on my graduate degree (i'm a slow learner, but i got to hand around gryphon guitars, sigh).
john, they're supposed to be at the ends of my arms? yikes! let me work on that. yep, you all sound great (i just got the CD last week, thanks again for the retransmission, raymond). patrick, though, really amazed me with what he could do with a simple sweep. he said that he had learned it from ray kane. my own kumu likes to sweep, but patrick made it sound magical.
thanks again, all - there's a lot here to digest.
aloha,
keith
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Keith |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2003 : 11:06:07 PM
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Holy Cow - you responded to all the posts. I AM IMPRESSED.
When I was getting started I took three lessons with a teacher at San Jose State so I could get the fundamentals off to a good start. Throughout my life I have listened to mostly clasical music and I really love the classical guitar - I just don't have the guts to get into it.
Raymond |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2003 : 3:13:51 PM
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quote:
Then there's a myriad of things that start causing hesitation, or even problems. Like... shaking hands.
Yes, I think Keola has a story about going bowling. He told the story to one of the classes I missed at camp. Maybe one of you out there know it or may ask Keola about it sometime. |
Andy |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2003 : 9:42:13 PM
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My cousin is a vet and said she's going to send me a jar of stuff they use on horses hooves to toughen them. Anybody heard of that stuff?
Raymond |
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cdyas
Akahai
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2003 : 11:37:35 AM
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Not to be ignant but..
Sound quality aside, is their advantage to using nails/picks vs. my stubby finger tips. |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2003 : 1:53:40 PM
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Moral of the story...
Give up the guitar. Take up the accordian.
Polka Rocks!
Cmdr'Happy Krakowiak' Piffle,
Ace Polka Meister |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2003 : 2:09:14 PM
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Given the fact that the plastic Alaska Piks can be clipped, filed, and shaped like fingernails and that they PLAY like fingernails, I would add the following:
Alaska Piks: easy to get, easy to master, a relatively natural feel
Alaska Piks (plastic): hard (not as hard as picks), brilliant sound
Alaska Piks (brass): hard, brilliant sound
Alaska Piks (plastic): Good attack, medium-to-loud volume.
Alaska Piks (brass): Good attack, loud volume.
For me, a guy who has wimpy fingernails and is proud to keep them that way, Alaska Piks are the only things I've tried that I've liked. I hate the sound of metal picks (too clacky) and the way they feel (or don't feel) when playing. (I've tried the ones with the open finger tips but they're still clacky). I've tried growing my nails out but they're too weak and I don't like the way they look and feel (hence I have no desire to enhance them). Alaska Piks, to me, are the perfect solution because they give me everything I want without any compromise (other than the fact that I have to put them on and take them off). I also find them to be comfortable to aware once you find the right size and adjust them properly.
For the record, I have no relationship to the Alaska Pik people other than the fact that I love and use their product.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 03/20/2003 2:11:13 PM |
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