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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2009 : 10:07:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
But Jay & Duke have helped me to understand a little better what bugs 'em (I think) - while maybe Daniel hasn't necessarily been proclaiming himself to be a "slack key master," neither has he dismissed the assumption that comes from his being invited to play at those concerts, or included on the releases from those shows.
That's what a lot of the folks here on TP would do. Even the ones who are really, really good (you know who ya are) would protest being marketed under a "master" label.
I'm not aware of any of the artists/"Masters" on the (a) George Winston Dancing Cat "Slack Key Masters" series, (b) Daniel Ho/Kahumoku/Kornwiser/Wong's "Live from Maui" Masters Series (which won 3 Grammys), (c) Milton & Chris Lau's "Hawaiian Slack Key Kings - Master Series" (Grammy finalist), and (d) Led Kaapana's "Grandmaster Slack Key" (Grammy finalist), etc. protesting being marketed under a "Slack Key Masters" label/title/designation.
No one put a gun to their head and forced them to be marketed under such a designation. I don't think they refused the money or royalties coming from those CDs (please correct me if I'm wrong). How many of them said, "No thanks, I don't want to be on the album because I don't consider myself a master." Yeah, right. "That's what a lot of folks on Taropatch would do." Really? Several of these artists are on Taropatch. Non-slack key and even non-Hawaiian musicians still get invited to and participate in the "Hawaiian Slack Key" festivals--no one seems to be protesting that either.
Before we single out Daniel Ho for not dismissing himself from a "Masters" designation or playing on such designated albums/concerts, or being a "sell out" or an "opportunist" or other term, are we ready to call out all of the other opportunists, even if they are our friends, teachers, and/or Hawaiian blooded? Maybe we need to check if there's a double standard going on. Maybe we should do a music integrity and hypocrisy check. Or maybe we should just call it "business."
Again, I'm just calling it as I see it and I'm open to facts and healthy discussion indicating the contrary.
Aloha,
Doug
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Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 02/14/2009 11:00:55 PM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 11:48:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by PearlCityBoy
Before we single out Daniel Ho for not dismissing himself from a "Masters" designation or playing on such designated albums/concerts, or being a "sell out" or an "opportunist" or other term, are we ready to call out all of the other opportunists, even if they are our friends, teachers, and/or Hawaiian blooded? Maybe we need to check if there's a double standard going on. Maybe we should do a music integrity and hypocrisy check. Or maybe we should just call it "business."
I think this thread has drifted away from the original argument (not mine, although I agree with it to a large extent)...that a) Daniel does not play slack key, b) Daniel has never studied slack key, and yet c) Daniel is labeling himself as a slack key master, whether directly or by intentional association. The other artists mentioned here, whether they're using the label of slack key master in an opportunist way or not, all deserve the label to some degree or another. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 02/14/2009 11:48:56 AM |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 1:13:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cpatch
I think this thread has drifted away from the original argument (not mine, although I agree with it to a large extent)...that a) Daniel does not play slack key, b) Daniel has never studied slack key, and yet c) Daniel is labeling himself as a slack key master, whether directly or by intentional association. The other artists mentioned here, whether they're using the label of slack key master in an opportunist way or not, all deserve the label to some degree or another.
My apologies as I might have digressed from the original post, but I hope my comments were at least thought provoking, whether you agree with them or not. Also, the thread started as two questions and not as an argument that Daniel does not play slack key, etc.
Cpatch, here are some of my thoughts/comments to your post:
(a) I'm not sure how to answer whether Daniel is playing "slack key" or not when I don't see a clear or consensus definition of what "slack key" is, or all the variants like "Contemporary slack key," "Traditional slack key," "Hawaiian (vs. some other?) slack key," Slack key jazz," "Pure slack key," "Slack key inspired," "New Age," or even "Elevator Music." His version of "Whee Ha Swing" in his Kilauea tuning sounds like slack key to me.
I'm also not going to profess that "I know slack key when I hear it," because there's a lot of gray area in my own mind. E.g., is Olomana's classic "Ku'u Home 'O Kahalu'u" slack key? It's in Open D tuning (in key of E I think), but I don't think tuning alone makes something slack key. Is it traditional slack key? Is it Hawaiian music? Is John Keawe's "Aunty's Rose Garden" slack key? It's also in Open D tuning. Is it Hawaiian music? It's an instrumental song inspired by his Aunty's rose garden in Fairfield, CA. Is slack key a subset of Hawaiian music--i.e., by definition is slack key Hawaiian music? In any event, I enjoy listening and playing those songs, and I'm not losing sleep over how someone else labels or categorizes them as slack key or not.
(b) "Daniel has never studied slack key"--I don't think this is part of the original post, but I'll comment anyway. I can't answer whether Daniel has studied slack key or not. Maybe someone should ask him (personally, I don't care). I've heard him play stuff that sounds Hawaiian and slack key to me. Not sure how you define "studied." I know he's spent a lot of time jamming, collaborating, teaching, and hanging out with Hawaiian musicians, including elusively defined slack key artists. I think he listens to a lot of Hawaiian music, including slack key, and in the area of music theory he is very knowledgeable and he has a degree in music.
(c) I've seen Daniel labeled as a "Slack key master," whether intentional or not. As you've seen from my other posts, I think "Slack key master" is overused and has become marketing puffery, and lots of slack key artists and non-slack and non-Hawaiian artists are guilty by direct or indirect association and not doing anything about it. Like any other consumer good, buyer beware. Personally, I think only a handful of artists are "slack key masters" in the non-marketing sense of the word.
Aloha,
Doug
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Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 02/14/2009 8:41:53 PM |
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slackkey808
Akahai
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2009 : 09:00:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by PearlCityBoy
Is slack key a subset of Hawaiian music--i.e., by definition is slack key Hawaiian music?
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slackkey808
Akahai
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2009 : 09:07:12 AM
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| Ok I totally did that wrong, I was trying to respond to the above quote I posted. From books that I read when I was in high school (books about Hawaiian music) much of the "Hawaiian" music that we hear today has been influenced by hymns that the missionaries brought to Hawaii. I think everyone can agree that if you want to listen to traditional Hawaiian music, what you'll most likely get is chanting (which is fine). However, if you still count the hymn influenced Hawaiian music as Hawaiian music, then slack key is also Hawaiian music because it was created to match the sounds of the hymn influenced music. It's not that hard to hear the similarities of "tradtional" slack key and Hawaiian songs that have words. This is just my opinion but hey, I'm only 19. |
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Julie H
Ha`aha`a
USA
1206 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2009 : 8:52:21 PM
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So, who are the folks making the nominations?
I remember Keola Beamer disagreeing with the nomination of his latest album which was classical music played in slack key guitar tunings. He jumped up several notches in my esteem when he asked to be removed from that list. (But then, I've always admired him.)
Julie
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Edited by - Julie H on 02/16/2009 8:53:00 PM |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 08:08:29 AM
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Zack--I think you've got it right. I'd say that "Hawaiian music" is the music that Hawaiian people play in a way that makes it their own. That means that when the sailors and the missionaries and the Mexican cowboys brought their various kinds of music and Hawaiians absorbed those materials, the results were new kinds of Hawaiian music. It's no different from European gypsies (primarily but not exclusively Django) absorbing French and American pop and jazz and coming up with what we now call "gyspy jazz." Jazz itself is the result of different traditions converging and then dividing and spreading around and recombining. It's what people do. (We do it in other areas of our lives, too, for example by intermarrying. I'm an Anglo-Slovak married to a Lithuanian. That's not just America, that's humankind.) And the process is still going on, which causes people who value the past to get nervous, lest the good old stuff be forgotten (that seems to have been Auntie Alice's concern). But with recordings and players who make a point of preserving the old ways, there's less danger of losing track of where things came from.
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 08:23:22 AM
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Hi, Julie - the initial albums for eligibility consideration come from either the record companies or the artists themselves, if they are Recording Academy members. Which means either Keola himself (which I doubt, given his reaction) or someone at the record companies (anywhere along the line, from Dancing Cat to Windham Hill to BMG/Sony) made the submission in that category.
Voting members of the Academy (like myself) vote on our five choices for nominees from the list of eligible releases. The top five vote-getters become the nominees, and on a later ballot, we vote on one from that list.
Hope that makes some sense. =Gregg= |
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Julie H
Ha`aha`a
USA
1206 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 9:47:47 PM
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Thanks Gregg,
that was very helpful. Just how many voting memebers are there in the Academy?
Julie |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 06:50:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Julie H
Just how many voting memebers are there in the Academy?
Over 16,000 at present. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 08:48:16 AM
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| Not everyone votes for all categories. Each member can vote for the overal "top" awards -- best album, etc etc, and then choose from among the separate categories. Each categories has subcategories. Each individual voter is free to decide if they know enough about the categories they choose to vote in. Hawaiian is under the "folk" category. It is possible (likely?) that people who vote in the folk category are voting because their primary interest is in one of the other genres, but also vote in the Hawaiian genre 'cause, why not? I've never seen how many votes are actually cast in the Hawaiian category, but it would be interesting |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 10:01:19 AM
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Raymond is correct. We can all vote in the big four (Record of the Year, Song..., Album... & Best New Artist), then we are required to choose eight or nine (depends on which ballot) "fields" - like Jazz, Folk, Classical, Musical Show, Rock, etc. - supposedly the fields we are best acquainted with, and we can vote on all the "categories" within that field. Some fields have few categories (the "New Age" field has only "Best New Age Album" in it), while others have several. Some fields are only open to certain sub-groups of members (like the Engineering & Production Awards are only voted on by the 6,000 or so members of the Producers & Engineers Wing - which I'm also in).
The "Folk" field not only has "Best Hawaiian Music Album" but also "Best Traditional Folk Album," "Best Contemporary Folk/Americana Album," and "Best Native American Music Album." As Raymond noted, people who want to vote on "Native American" CAN also vote on "Hawaiian," people who want to vote on "Hawaiian" CAN vote on "Americana" and so on. The idea is that you should only vote in the categories you feel you know. I always vote in the "Hawaiian" one, but rarely in "Native American." I always vote for most of the categories in the Jazz field, but some years, I skip "Best Latin Jazz Album," if I don't know the releases well enough. But it's on an honor system overall.
I doubt that there are a lot of votes in "Hawaiian" by people who know nothing about the music, but there may be several by those who know only a little bit about it. In a category such as this, there are likely few enough votes that each one carries a bit more weight than, say, "Best Rock Vocal Performance - Male."
The Recording Academy does not release voting numbers, though as noted, they would be interesting to see. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 5:58:22 PM
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Gregg,
I think you are right on when you state that in a category like Hawaiian each vote counts for more. I think that's why certain types of albums have gotten awards. Lots of people in music have HEARD of slack key. Ubcle George has busted his tail for years crossing the mainland, playing at a lot of colleges - same people who like folk. That's exposure. Daniel has tons more name recognition than most Hawaiian musicians.
Not to rehash old stuff, but ... that's why more HARA members could make a real difference in this voting. It's also why sitting in Hawaii and making one or two trips to the mainland won't win you a Grammy. I wonder why Makaha Sons and Brothers Caz didn't score big - they do have name recognition. |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1025 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 06:41:59 AM
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| I love the Makaha Sons music, but they haven't released anything new in decades; too busy touring and doing live stuff. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 2:49:33 PM
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| Once again, Raymond, you hit the center of the target. I'd offer you an award - but based on discussions in another thread, "awards" don't matter much, knowwotimeen? |
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