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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2009 : 12:14:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Momi
BTW, I did not mean to imply that PMJ or anyone else on this thread was not being pono. I just saw the potential for it to happen.
And in that spirit, I want to be sure that everyone knows Duke & I have NO BEEF with each other. We disagree on some aspects of all this, based on our own experiences with various musicians, but that's not a problem for either of us. We're expressing opinions and ideas, learning from each other, and there is no "right or wrong" in this, no anger - only respect. |
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braddah jay
Lokahi
235 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 1:58:03 PM
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| After this I'm pau with this,and good point retro.But I think what was missed by a lot of us is this person allows himself to be billed as a slack key master,who doesn't play in any of the more common slack key tunings.His own tuning doesn't make him a master,nor does the fact that he produced the winning nomination.I'm not talking about where slack key is headed,or what this person has done for the hawaiian music industry,or how nice of a guy he is.But slack key master in the same breath as others who are certainly more deserving,and not humbly correcting it.That should of been the topic,strait from the get go.Now I'm pau. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 7:17:39 PM
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Oh, right - no beef with Jay eedah.
Was thinking about this last night and thought about certain points ---
> Mainlander (specifically, Californian)
> Musician whose success has been mostly in an "easy instrumental" (dare we call it, "new age"?) vein
> Knowledge of record company business side, enough to run his own label
> Issues slack key recordings to much attention and acclaim
Now, am I describing Daniel Ho ... or George Winston? Does anyone not recognize how much the releases on Dancing Cat did for drawing attention to ki ho`alu? And (having been a partner in two record companies myself) I can attest that neither of them are gettin' wealthy off the recordings they issue, not on a form of music that has a very small audience.
But Jay & Duke have helped me to understand a little better what bugs 'em (I think) - while maybe Daniel hasn't necessarily been proclaiming himself to be a "slack key master," neither has he dismissed the assumption that comes from his being invited to play at those concerts, or included on the releases from those shows.
That's what a lot of the folks here on TP would do. Even the ones who are really, really good (you know who ya are) would protest being marketed under a "master" label. I don't play ki ho`alu, but I'm no master at anything - even the stuff I do very well; I'm always haumana, at one level or another.
That's how I feel and how I would express myself. I'm not so comfortable insisting that anyone else do the same, though. If thumbstruck allowed a promoter to call him "the best slack key guitarist in the Pacific Northwest" (which would likely make him cringe), I might tease him about getting big head - but I wouldn't be mad at him. And I know his credentials. I know some of Daniel's, not all. I guess his own promotions don't burr my butt the same as it does others.
In the same vein, therefore, I can accept that it DOES bother those others - and I'm grateful that they've made their points eloquently enough for me to hear; I hope I have done the same in return. I go back to my earlier point to say, if you don't like his music - don't give him any of your money, your support, or your valuable listening time. |
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guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 7:45:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
I want to be sure that everyone knows Duke & I have NO BEEF with each other.
Oh, right - no beef with Jay eedah.
It would behoove you to not be having any beef with Da Boloheads, since they'll be staying at your house when they fly to Seattle.  |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 8:05:42 PM
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Gregg,
That was a truly eloquent post. Mahalo nui. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 8:06:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by guitarded
It would behoove you to not be having any beef with Da Boloheads, since they'll be staying at your house when they fly to Seattle.
Right. I give 'em your address, btw. Put a poster of the Space Needle in your window, would ya? |
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guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 9:39:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
Put a poster of the Space Needle in your window, would ya?
Actually, I have a poster of the Space Needle up on my bedroom wall. It gives me a reason to wake up in the morning, to be able to see the very same thing that you and Momi see every day from your spacious penthouse apartment. |
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braddah jay
Lokahi
235 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 10:34:48 PM
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| Retro,nothing but love and respect for you washington ohana,that's why what your voice is appreciated on this topic.No ones input is taken for granted,sometimes just need to clarify what we're really trying to say.So no worries,this weekend we're dedicating for you folks in washington,at least I am.I know I said I was pau,thanks retro for your insight.Braddah jay |
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guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 10:38:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by braddah jay
I know I said I was pau
No worries braddah Jay, Portagees always get free pass.  |
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abrigoohana
Lokahi
271 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 07:48:36 AM
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Aloha,
I'm going to post something very carefully here, and I say that because I hope and pray that I can convey the thought and feeling behind the way these words were said. Since Timi first started playing slack key (he was 11 years old), he's posed the question "What makes you a master of slack key?". Over the last two years, he has asked several, very respected, slack key artist this very question. He received a myriad of answers, but the answer that finally made him stop asking the question came from the slack key guitarist that he has the most respect for, Uncle Led. There is no such thing as a slack key master, it's a made up title.
Makes you think, doesn't it? When he said that, it completely opened my eyes. As we spoke more on the subject with Uncle Led we discussed how if there truly was a "master" title, there would have to be a systematic accomplishment program, or someone that would bestow the ranking onto a person. Think of it in terms of martial arts. A "master" would be a black belt (depending on the exact system, kung fu has a red sash, judo has a red and white, etc.), and a grand master, is a master of at least one form that then goes out and develops his own form. Interesting, yeah?
My personal response to "Is Daniel playing slack key" is that depends on your own, personal definition of slack key. Makana plays slack key, but his style is very different too. In many places people play what they call "alternate tunings", but Hawaiian slack key has a very specific flavor to me, when it boils down, the word I come to is traditional. "Is his style an advanced version of what slack key will become in the future?" To this I say it definitely is a sign of what will become of some Hawaiian music in the future, but I hope that Hawaiian slack key will always remain traditional.
All this from the mother of children who enjoy traditional Hawaiian slack key.
Aloha, Lanet
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 4:42:10 PM
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Okayden, here’s my tree cents. In keeping with the holiday spirit “…four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal…” Actually it was more like three one half score and give or take a half dozen years, our fathers started releasing Hawaiian music for consumption. Okay then forget about the score.
About seventy or so years ago Hawaiian music was recorded on acetate discs for radio. Commercial releases were not available until the fledgling record companies such as Bell in Hawaii set up their distribution network. It is highly unlikely that there was any thought given as to whether these first few recordings were an appropriation of the culture, or that slack key would become a commodity beyond Hawaii’s shores in later years, or that there was anybody who played slack guitar who could be called a master. All of this came much later.
Now there should be no question as to where this term came from. I never heard of the term masters of slack key used before until George Winston took an interest in slack key. And I have been around a long time.
The paradigm moment in the evolution of slack key occurred in 1946 with Gabby’s release of Hi’ilawe. It wasn’t the very first recording of slack key, because there were acetates from early radio shows of other artists playing slack key. But because he was as good a Hawaiian musician as you could possibly find and had some notoriety, he became the change agent. So the sound of slack key changed course from Gabby onward. Upon occasion, and among other honorifics – good or bad –Gabby may have been called a master during his lifetime. But my point is Gabby and his entourage – Sonny, Atta, Cyril, Peter Moon; Leonard Kwan and Ray Kane;Keola and Kapono; Ledward and Nedward were not called Masters. From 1946 thru the post Hawaiian Renaissance years, this term didn’t exist with in the local vernacular.
Now in marketing, you are always looking for something that will give your business an edge over the competition. The sellers determine who they consider masters and anybody can be a seller. It is not by accident that Dancing Cat’s catalog utilizes the hook the Masters of Slack Key. Subsequent to DC’s release of catalog, the “masters” became the catch name of media, the public and businesses alike.
Off the top of my head and in no particular order of preference, business and individuals may use this hook because; it is an effective technique that helps to define a product. In this case it differentiates one person who plays slack key from another who plays slack key – they all play the same notes, its just that one does it better than the other – or has better connections and has network of people (like Verizon). It also honors those who have been deemed worthy of the title; it increases the prestige of the same (in Okinawan this means “Big Head”) and elevates them above the rest of us, who are deemed not so worthy – kinda like plantation days when you could be Portagee, but not Caucasian. Or you could be Puerto Rican but not Portagee, but what would I know about this yeah Jay?
In addition, part of the dilemma with this idea of masters is that many assume that learning from a “master” was part of the folk process as it applies to slack key. This is not so. If you were fortunate enough to know someone who could show you what to do this is how it was passed on. They may or may not have been related to you, but the thing is they cared enough to pass on what they knew. In this sense learning from a “master” is a marketing construct thrown into this same process to show differentiation between players. It is one reason why you may pay $3500 a week to learn from so and so. Where you could probably be learning more for a lot less from someone who isn’t deemed a master by the body politic. And it has become divisive. Another part of the dilemma is geographic. There is a big difference in perception of slack key between Hawaii and the mainland. There is a difference in the cultural soundscapes between the two.
Furthermore there is the generational aspect on this. Older local people, my age, maybe disappointed because what they are listening for is no longer there. The cultural traits that they were accustomed too have been left by the wayside. The younger local people don’t know any better. They listen to the music to which they are accustomed. As traditionalists want to preserve the art form in what they perceive as a pure state or what they remember. Innovators move in the opposite direction, trying something new or adapting a tradition to the contemporary sound of the day. This is what Aunty Alice was lamenting.
Within this world of mass media and entertainment, the higher the profile the greater the recognition regardless of whether the subject matter is viewed positively or negatively this is how content is sold, i.e., the news, movies, television product, recordings, concerts, workshops and books. More often than not bad news can sell more than good news.
In the entertainment industry, the Oscars – for movies, the Grammy Awards – for music, and the winners of these awards are the epitome of what is considered high profile. Think of this as a beauty contest or a high school popularity contest on a very large scale. Do the 19,000 or so members of NARAS really have an understanding any of cultures other than their own? Maybe a few do, but I believe that the majority of them make their choices based upon their own interests and experience, and that they really haven’t been exposed to authentic Hawaiian music.
When we are examining how a specific clientele or market may be swayed to buy a product, we have to take into account that being perceived as a master of anything is significant. Being a celebrity or a master of anything (regardless of how this was bestowed) greatly increases the magnitude of recognition and influence that person has over a discriminating consumer bass. That is why companies are always seeking endorsements for new and established product lines – it gives product a higher profile and competitive edge.
Within business you have to be opportunistic just to maintain solvency. If you fail to be competitive your business is not going to do well. What the local community fails to realize is that Daniel is using a very simple marketing technique of product endorsement by association, and that he just wants to sell things to anybody who will buy what he has to offer – a CD, concert, movie score, recording servces, a book or whatever.
He has over forty products to sell according to one source. Lets not beat around the bush, commercial music is competitive. On the mainland he is basically on the coat tails of the trail blazed by George Winston’s Dancing Cat. Nobody is going after George and basically nobody should. Before Daniel the target was Charlie Brotman. Would I buy Daniels music? My answer is no. When I was asked by the Honolulu Advertiser to review it and Milton's release, I called several friends who are all slack key officianados to see if I could borrow the CDs, none of them had it. So I went down to Borders and listened to both albums there. As a recording engineer and slack key artist I have heard all of this stuff before ad nauseum.
Now look at this in contrast to an artist on a small label with no connections stuck out here in Hawaii. They have no distribution network to speak of or public relations firm on the mainland to get exposure. Do you seriously think there is a chance that they will get a Grammy?
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Edited by - Peter Medeiros on 02/15/2009 10:55:35 AM |
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Pali
Akahai
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 5:42:04 PM
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Good points..
*wave to Lanet* (we gotta get the `ohana back on Pakele soon!) :) |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 6:07:26 PM
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| TP is represented by several "masters" of eloquence; thanks for everyone's perspectives. We've taken what had the potential to be a nasty screech-fest and turned it into a deeply thought-provoking conversation. I'm lucky to have access to you folks. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 9:25:09 PM
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| I agree das jus like he said das wat I say. Jus press. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 09:13:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
TP is represented by several "masters" of eloquence; thanks for everyone's perspectives. We've taken what had the potential to be a nasty screech-fest and turned it into a deeply thought-provoking conversation. I'm lucky to have access to you folks.
It would be premature to draw a conclusion on this topic at this point in time. And it will not be resolved here in this forum. There are legitimate reasons for the uproar in the Hawaiian Music community concerning this and not all of those who have concerns have expressed their opinions or reasons for the bitterness and opposition. I have taught slack key for a long time and I have met many people including students, prospective students and ordinary people. Overall they perceive Hawaiian music, hula, and slack key, as they know it as part of their identity even though they may not be able to play, sing or hula.
I think I first wrote about the Grammy for Hawaiian Music five years ago in this forum, but I forgot what opinions I expressed then – I’m sure some opinions are still good some may have changed. But every year at about this time we go through this exercise of finger pointing and disdain about who should have won, this is turning into a chronic condition with no end in sight.
It has been controversial since its inception and has caused a rift within the Hawaiian music community. They are not stupid or uncaring or envious – as it was expressed to me by a couple well known artists – they just feel “used.” This community recognizes that there has been an unwarranted appropriation of their culture and their talent. On top of that some of the winners in spite of this are for lack of a better word are acting “tantara.” And this has only exacerbated the problem. If my opinion were to carry any weight whatsoever, I would suggest doing away with the Grammy for Hawaiian music.
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Edited by - Peter Medeiros on 02/15/2009 06:03:25 AM |
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