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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2009 : 08:25:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
Play so that an uncle or an aunty thinks of their small kid time.
I like that one.^^^
There is nothing better than seeing your kupuna smile. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 09:15:28 AM
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Responding to Marks question:
There should be no question that Keola plays slack key. (I can guess that Mark thinks this too).
As a guitar player he is not in my top four but he is a GREAT arranger and GREAT song writer. Have you been to any of his concerts? His show has choke Hawaiian tradition and culture. It is a big part of what he does.
His style may not be traditional but he has not left the fold either. There are plenty Hawaiian slack key element in his music.
He has maintained his connection to Hawaiian music. |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 02/26/2009 09:16:11 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 11:39:31 AM
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| Az y I said need a book of Kory-isms. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Claudia
Lokahi
USA
152 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 5:49:32 PM
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In my book, Keola Beamer is slack key to the CORE. Sure, he has taken slack key in his own unique contemporary direction, but he is slack key down to his bones. I love his slack key as much as I love Sonny Chillingworth's, Gabby Pahinui's, Ledward Kaapana's and all those wonderful old timers on the "History of Slack Key" album.
Keola's own mentor, Auntie Alice Namakelua used to scold Gabby and Ray for being too "modern." But Aunty Alice was one of the first slack key players to teach "outsiders" slack key and she passed on the importance of teaching to Keola.
For those of us who were not lucky enough to be born into a musical family in Hawai'i, Keola, through his many instructional books, videos, DVD and his website brings slack key to the rest of us and we are all the richer for it.For those who have not yet investigated his materials - he teaches in several tunings including Taropatch.
His teaching technique is so clear, so helpful, so full of aloha, and above all - so steeped in what makes the music Hawaiian, and what makes the guitar sing in slack key.
And then there is CAMP. I have been lucky enough to have been his haumana in his classes and one-on-one. His generosity and encouragement to me have been incredible, and I am mostly a simple traditional slack key player.
Just my two cents. Not only is Keola slack key to me - through his reaching out and teaching Hawaiians and haoles alike, he helps ensure that slack key will continue to thrive.
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 3:47:06 PM
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Beautifully said, Claudia. My sentiments exactly.
Allen |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 08:18:40 AM
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quote:
In my book, Keola Beamer is slack key to the CORE.
So by now you guys know why I asked the question, right? 
It isn't that I question whether or not KB plays slack key-- of course he does.
Rather it seems that every couple of months someone asks "Is so-and-so playing slack key?" (or something to that effect) which always brings out the same bunch of impassioned answers.
From my perspective, it always boils down to the same thing: whether or not the questioner likes the performer/music in question.
Sure, everybody here on Taropatch likes Keola's music (save Wanda-- for which I salute her honesty) and I think no one can fault his dedication and commitment to Hawaiian music and culture.
The fact is Keola is consciously trying to create something new -- a classical-style slack key that is suited to the concert hall. (If you don't believe me, ask him.)
Traditional? I'd say not-- and so do you.
quote:
Sure, he has taken slack key in his own unique contemporary direction
quote:
His style may not be traditional but he has not left the fold either. There are plenty Hawaiian slack key element in his music.
He has maintained his connection to Hawaiian music.
But we all like his music.
But what about Daniel Ho, Makana, Bolo, Chris Yeaton... and a host of other younger Hawaiian artists who have decided, for whatever reasons, to take slack key and Hawaiian music somewhere else?
Time and time again some (usually) grey haired (usually) guy will say "THAT'S NOT SLACK KEY!!!" and the we'll all hash it out until Kory or someone else reminds us to be cilvil.
I believe what you mean to say is "I don't like it." Which is a very different statement, innit? 
All I ask is that the next time we get together to discuss this topic, we recognize what we are saying, and why we are saying it.
The old saw about there being only two kinds of music, good and bad (and Jack says he plays both kinds ) is only partially true.
It's really only music you like and music you don't like.
And I play both kinds. 
Smiley alert: I have used a ton of smileys so that no one will think I'm upset and therefore no one will become upset at what I say.
If you are upset, please take a deep breath, count to 100, and drink a calming beverage of choice. Then listen to or play your favorite slack key piece.
If you are still upset, repeat the three steps daily for a week.
Then go ahead and flame me. 
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 12:42:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
[
But what about Daniel Ho, Makana, Bolo, Chris Yeaton... and a host of other younger Hawaiian artists who have decided, for whatever reasons, to take slack key and Hawaiian music somewhere else?
Time and time again some (usually) grey haired (usually) guy will say "THAT'S NOT SLACK KEY!!!" and the we'll all hash it out until Kory or someone else reminds us to be cilvil.
I believe what you mean to say is "I don't like it." Which is a very different statement, innit?
(checks his head for gray hairs...)
But what if someone's style really doesn't sound like "Slack Key"?
Here is another question,
What good does it do to describe someone as a "Slack Key" guitarist or playing "Slack Key" music as opposed to "Acoustic New Age"/"Easy Listening"/"Lite Jazz"/etc.?
For me, it seems like the term "Slack Key" would apply to a music that is rooted in a specific tradition.
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 2:28:02 PM
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It's taken us seven pages to get to this accurate summation:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark
It's really only music you like and music you don't like.
So, we are left with the choice of using our energies to complain about the music we don't like, or to champion the music we do like, finding more of it, and sharing it with others. |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 4:27:23 PM
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Without a (consensus) definition of slack key or set of criteria that distinguishes slack key, trying to define whether an artist or a particular song/arrangement is "slack key" or not is a moving target based on individual interpretation, whether educated or not. If there was a Grammy Award or Hoku Award just for slack key, what would the criteria be? How would the gray hairs define it? How would the Taropatch community define it?
FYI, here's how the first two paragraphs of Wikipedia define slack key http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_key_guitar :
"Slack-key guitar is a fingerstyle genre of guitar music that originated in Hawaii. Its name refers to its characteristic tuning: the English term is a translation of the Hawaiian kī hōalu, which means "loosen the [tuning] key". Most slack-key tunings can be achieved by starting with a classically tuned guitar and detuning or "slacking" one or more of the strings until the six strings form a single chord, frequently G major.
In the oral-history account, the style originated from Mexican cowboys in the late 19th century. These paniolo (a Hawaiianization of españoles—"Spaniards") gave Hawaiians the guitars and taught them the rudiments of playing, and then left, allowing the Hawaiians to develop the style on their own. (Musicologists and historians suggest that the story is more complicated, [1] but this is the version that is most often offered by Hawaiian musicians.) Slack key guitar adapted to accompany the rhythms of Hawaiian dancing and the harmonic structures of Hawaiian music. The style of Hawaiian music that was promoted as a matter of national pride under the reign of King David Kalākaua in the late 19th century combined rhythms from traditional dance meters with imported European forms (for example, military marches), and drew its melodies from chant (mele and oli), hula, Christian hymns (hīmeni), and the popular music brought in by the various peoples who came to the Islands: English-speaking North Americans, Mexicans, Portuguese, Filipinos, Puerto Ricans, Tahitians, and Samoans."
I've heard discussion about slack key being grounded in a specific tradition. However, if you accept some of the above Wikipedia explanation, then slack key guitar evolved from a number of ethnic traditions and music forms, and not one specific tradition.
On top of all this, for much of slack key's existence, tunings and styles were secretly held and passed on for generations within families, and recordings were very rare or non-existent. So now, imagine it’s the late 1800s or early 1900s (or for that matter up until the 1970s) and envision various Hawaiian families on different islands and in remote/isolated locations developing their own secret family tunings/styles based on their own family traditions, personal tastes, and other outside influences (including musical ones and non-Hawaiians marrying into the family).
After several generations of these family secrets evolving in relative vacuums (at least between one family and the next), my presumption would be that slack key styles became very different from one family to another, and from one location to another. Which families’ definition or style would be considered “slack key” or “traditional slack key?” I ask this question rhetorically, because I’ve even heard criticisms of several Hawaiian-blooded slack key artists that they were not playing traditional slack key or not even slack key at all, even though their style was passed on to them by their kupuna as far back as great great grandparents.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not going to profess that "I know slack key when I hear it," because there's a lot of gray area in my own mind. I’m not talking about the obvious examples, but I could rattle off a lot of gray area examples, and I’ve been listening to this music since small-kid time in Hawaii. Unfortunately, what’s really disturbing to me is not so much defining the gray area, but the dearth of old-style traditional slack key recordings, current musicians who know how to play it, and places to hear it live.
Aloha,
Doug
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Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 03/02/2009 4:29:56 PM |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 11:58:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Menpachi Man
quote:
Originally posted by PearlCityBoy
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not going to profess that "I know slack key when I hear it,"
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Unfortunately, what’s really disturbing to me is not so much defining the gray area, but the dearth of old-style traditional slack key recordings, current musicians who know how to play it, and places to hear it live.
Doug:
So, you admit that you admit that you know "old style slack key" indirectly by "lamenting the demise of it"? Apparently you know old style slack key "when you hear it" I am being facetious, by the way. Hehe, well, not quite. Damned logical mind of mine. But that is what gray haired old futs and boloheds are talking about. However, I will leave it to the purview of the scholars to define it.
Menpachi Man,
If you say you and others “just know it (slack key) when we hear it” then why don’t you define it (and the variants like “traditional slack key,” “contemporary slack key,” “slack key influenced,” etc.) to help clarify the confusion and eliminate the moving target? E.g., does slack key have to have alternating bass patterns? Or do you agree with Mark that it doesn’t have to, particularly if you’re not in a tuning that easily lends itself to alternating bass? Do you consider Keola’s music slack key or not? If it’s not “traditional” slack key then what label would you recommend instead?
How about providing examples of what’s traditional slack key and the other variants, as well as what’s not slack key in your opinion. Provide sources where people can learn about slack key. If you’re concerned about passing along traditional slack key to the next generation, why not discuss it and share your mana’o in an online forum? The next generation might be reading this forum. Why wait for “the purview of scholars” to define it? Who are these scholars anyway, besides the ones that Wikipedia and Dancing Cat might have referenced?
When you say you are unable to see where the “slack key” in Daniel’s G Kilauea tuning (D-G-C-G-B-E, where two strings are different than Taropatch) is, would you make the same comment about Keola’s C tuning (C-G-D-G-B-E, also two strings different than Taropatch), in which the bottom 4 strings are standard? Would you make the same comment about Bla Pahinui’s Dropped D tuning (D-A-D-G-B-E), which is basically standard tuning with one string different (the low E dropped to D), not to mention he plays the guitar upside down and so gets an entirely different sound? Is Bla playing slack key? If it is not traditional slack key then what is it? Of the myriad other tunings which were invented by creative Hawaiians over the years and kept secret in families until recently, which ones are legitimate slack key tunings and which ones are not?
Have you heard Daniel’s version of “Whee Ha Swing” in his Kilauea tuning? Is that slack key? Is Jeff Peterson’s version of “Whee Ha Swing” a more “acceptable” version of slack key? Is Jeff Peterson’s album, “Pure Slack Key,” which won the Hoku for best instrumental album, pure slack key? Is it traditional slack key? Do the gray hairs approve of it or not?
In my earlier post, I mentioned Olomana’s “Ku’u Home ‘O Kahalu’u” and John Keawe’s “Aunty’s Rose Garden” as gray areas for me in terms of whether they’re true slack key or not. In talking with several other slack key players here in the Bay Area, it’s gray area for them too.
When I talked about some of the old-style traditional slack key, I was thinking of albums like “Slack-Key Tradition” (Liko Hawaiian Folk Collection – Vol. 2; Gary Haleamau, Elmer Lim, Robert Keli’iho’omalu Jr., Nolan Ha’o) and songs by other lesser known artists like Victor Chock, Benjamin Kaili, Jr., and James Kaili. To me, those albums/songs and players sound more traditional slack key and less gray area than some of the aforementioned examples.
This thread started as a question about whether Daniel Ho plays slack key or not. In order to answer that question, it seems to me that one would have to first define what slack key is. If that definition is elusive, then so is the answer to the Daniel Ho question.
Aloha,
Doug
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 01:22:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by PearlCityBoy
When you say you are unable to see where the “slack key” in Daniel’s G Kilauea tuning (D-G-C-G-B-E, where two strings are different than Taropatch) is, would you make the same comment about Keola’s C tuning (C-G-D-G-B-E, also two strings different than Taropatch), in which the bottom 4 strings are standard? Would you make the same comment about Bla Pahinui’s Dropped D tuning (D-A-D-G-B-E), which is basically standard tuning with one string different (the low E dropped to D), not to mention he plays the guitar upside down and so gets an entirely different sound? Is Bla playing slack key? If it is not traditional slack key then what is it? Of the myriad other tunings which were invented by creative Hawaiians over the years and kept secret in families until recently, which ones are legitimate slack key tunings and which ones are not?
"Slack Key" is more than just tuning your guitar differently though. (See: Ledward's version of Mauna Loa Slack Key.)
quote:
Originally posted by PearlCityBoy
Have you heard Daniel’s version of “Whee Ha Swing” in his Kilauea tuning? Is that slack key? Is Jeff Peterson’s version of “Whee Ha Swing” a more “acceptable” version of slack key? Is Jeff Peterson’s album, “Pure Slack Key,” which won the Hoku for best instrumental album, pure slack key? Is it traditional slack key? Do the gray hairs approve of it or not?
I haven't listened to Jeff Peterson's music very much, so I don't have an opinion on it.
I haven't heard Mr. Ho's "whee ha swing", but the other songs I have heard from him don't sound like slack key.
Have you heard Chet Atkins "Opini Moe Moe"? I really like his version, but I wouldn't consider it slack key or Hawaiian.
Have you heard Leonard Kwan or Ledward's version of "Silver Threads Among the Gold"? Definitely does not reflect its Barbershop Quartet history... definitely a staple in the slack repertoire.
PCB, I hope you don't take this as being argumentative. We are all just expressing what we think, and let me say, I respect your opinion.
........
maybe it is time for a venue change, because this thread really isn't so much about Daniel Ho as it is defining slack key?
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Edited by - sm80808 on 03/03/2009 01:23:10 AM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2176 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 05:52:05 AM
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| The best picking is done in the back yard, in any genre. That is the real way it is kept alive-- actual guys playing for and with actual guys. That is a living tradition. Once something is relegated to any form of recording, it becomes a museum piece, frozen in time - a witness of something that once was alive. Even on YouTube, no can taste da gandule rice or squid, which is part of the experience! |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 06:02:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
The best picking is done in the back yard, in any genre. That is the real way it is kept alive-- actual guys playing for and with actual guys. That is a living tradition. Once something is relegated to any form of recording, it becomes a museum piece, frozen in time - a witness of something that once was alive. Even on YouTube, no can taste da gandule rice or squid, which is part of the experience!
Kory, are you sure your belief that the best picking is done in the back yard isn't influenced by too many Primo's!! JUST KIDDING 
I'm glad I got my recordings, just as a reference. But you really are right in a lot of respects. There is just nothing like the experience of live music, on so many levels. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 08:51:40 AM
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Wonderful discussion, everyone!
One quick thought:
quote:
When you say you are unable to see where the “slack key” in Daniel’s G Kilauea tuning (D-G-C-G-B-E......
I'm not all that familiar with Daniel Ho's music, but one thing jumped out:
This tuning is very similar to a traditional Tongan slack key tuning I learned from Tomasi Tokuafu many years ago. (I'll leave the discussion about how the Mexican vaqueros got to Tonga to wiser minds than me....)
Tomasi played a style that would be recognizable as traditional slack key to anyone on this forum-- very sweet, very heartfelt.
He learned it as a child on his home island, which was one of the Niua group. Tomasi said he was one of the last people to play Tongan slack key.
He called it slack key... but it was not Hawaiian, and it did not have an alternating bass. His tuning, like Daniel's, let you play bass notes on the tonic, dominant and subdominant chords.
It appears that you can do that in Daniel's tuning in the key of G; Tomasi's Tongan tuning was in F (F-Bb-C-G-C-E if I remember correctly.)
I haven't seen Tomasi in many years-- I do know that, some 45 years or more after leaving Tonga as a young man, he did finally return for a visit and taught some kids how to play.
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 10:58:57 AM
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I want to encourage those members who feel passionately about "old style" to continue posting their opinions. I also think that there is a heavier "burden" on kanaka maoli to keep the traditions alive. (In truth, every living tradition slowly morphs over time. Otherwise it just ends up on display in a museum.) The tradition is important to the culture. It is also important for the rest of us to have the tradition as a wellspring to go back to.
That said, I would prefer such advocacy to be done without the exclusive use of the "slack key" label. Just as I think many people would more accurately describe their style as "slack key influenced," so would I prefer a very traditional style label as "traditional slack key." Using the extra adjectives adds clarity, respects the tradition and leaves room for growth/development. |
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