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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2009 : 2:08:22 PM
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No matter what "new style" playing people create, whether they started from a slack key "tradition" we are familiar with or not --- it's not going to kill off the "old style." Lots of great recordings exist, and there are lots of players who will perpetuate the traditions. It's not weak, from what I see and hear.
Let all artistic endeavors live, even the ones you'd rather ignore. If I don't want what's on that plate, maybe it will sustain someone else. Who am I to say "I don't like it --- so no one else should have it either"? |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2176 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 2:21:27 PM
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This reminds me of the discussions of some of my real hardcore buttonbox friends have about "volksmusik" - some is real "folkmusic" and some is "folk-type music". My counter was, "SOMEONE had to make the tune up, it didn't fall off of a tree." If it was SOMEONE, then that someone was a folk, thus all music is technically "folkmusic". Age of the tune, style, etc goes into it. Heck, I remember when the Beatles were new! Now their stuff is considered "folk". My uncle once said that if you have to explain your music to your grandparents, then something is wrong with it. Your grandparents don't have to like your music, but if it needs explanation, the communication of music isn't happening.
ONe time an acquaintance asked me how well I played guitar. I told him I know enough that I could be a snob, but I still need to learn more. |
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Hookani
Lokahi
232 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 3:52:59 PM
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This is from an outsiders point of view, meaning that I do not play Kihoalu but am no stranger to hawaiian music and have a high appreciation for all things hawaiian. For me, I'm a traditionalist in thinking Kihoalu is that old time sound that is 100% identifiably Hawaiian. I think there is a difference between Kihoalu and Slack Key. Kihoalu to me is more than just a tuning but encompasses a whole lot of other things including the heart and soul of the player, the technique and the song being played amoungst other things. For me Kihoalu is slack key but playing in a slack key is not necessarily kihoalu.
I liken it to this example of dancing hula (I am a long time dancer). We all know Hawaiian hula when we see it (if it's done properly). You hear hawaiian music and see someone dancing the song with appropriate choreography using all the basic foot motions that are a part of every hula. You know that what you are seeing is hula. Now if you hear hawaiian music and see someone dancing the macarena, is that hula? I think not. In hula there are basic foundations that you follow that makes it hula and makes it Hawaiian.
Side note: it always irks me when I see commercials advertising something to do with hula but showing tahitian dance.
To me I think the same can be said with Kihoalu, there are certain things that I think go into calling something Kihoalu and not just because a key is slacked. If just slacking a key were the case then anytime someone is not playing in standard tuning you could say they were playing Kihoalu and I can say pretty much everyone here agrees that that is not the case.
Found this old quote from Milton Lau.
The sound of slack-key is "distinctive to Hawaii," said Lau. "People play with open tuning everywhere in the world, but here, where it's done from the soul and the heart, helps relate the sound of slack-key to the Hawaii experience."
Now don't flame me too hard for saying this but like I said, I am an outsider to Kihoalu and this was just my opinion. Flame away, just don't kick me outta the forum please. Was just starting to make friends here.
Aloha,
Ho'okani |
Ke Kani Nahe
YouTube
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Edited by - Hookani on 03/03/2009 3:55:21 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 4:22:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
(In truth, every living tradition slowly morphs over time. Otherwise it just ends up on display in a museum.) The tradition is important to the culture. It is also important for the rest of us to have the tradition as a wellspring to go back to.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. That is why when some people think bluegrass music is country music, well, I guess it is, but it ain't the real old thing. Some upstart like Earl Scruggs wen pollute the music or kick it up a notch or however you want to call it. Now people think bluegrass is the old kine compared to what is labeled country music today like Tim McGraw dem.
On the other hand, I think it is swell that haku mele such as Dennis Kamakahi have written new songs the old way, which is what Uncle Eddie Kamae and Kawena Pukui knew was needed.
http://www.mele.com/music/artist/dennis+pavao/keiki+kupuna/ - Dennis Pavao sings so beautifully -- "You've got to care for the roots, to make a strong foundation".
http://www.mele.com/music/artist/john+keawe/aloha+kaikau%60ana/ - John Keawe plays and sings of his Tutu wanting him to learn slack key. It speaks of how important it was to an older generation that the mo`opuna learn slack key -- yes, the old way, by watching and listening.
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 7:09:46 PM
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"Why is it necessary for ki ho'alu to concede anything to Slack Key Influenced or Contemporary Slack Key or New Age? What warrants this or justifies this."
For a beginning, human communication. Make yourself too strident and, after a while, nobody will listen. Nobody listens and nobody gets interested in learning more about the culture. We learn by approximation, that is, step by step. So someone enters the field by means of Daniel Ho (chosen on purpose for Duke.) It makes more sense to me to befriend them and get them interested in listening to other performers, slowly teaching them about the traditions and, hopefully, interesting them in the culture. Duke, are you more interested in being right, or in getting people to know and love the roots and matrix from which slack key is born? (over and over again.)
Second place. You know from your own knowledge of the tradition that it has evolved. Paniolo just strummed chords, no? Good chance they didn't alternate bass, either. (For that matter, I remember reading that Atta, who often didn't play bass, made a comment to the effect of why alternate or play bass - all these other guys (in the group) are doing a good job at it.) We all know the stories about Auntie Alice and Ray Kane, etc etc etc. It's going to change, wether you like it or not. However, you can have a bigger or lesser part in influencing the direction of the change. IMO if peopple write you off because of your communications style, you will have less impact on the future direction. You will only learn from someone you will listen to. IMO that is a better goal for "the kuleana of all Kanaka Maoli and also those who possess the mana'o." than going on some crusade which, for reason given above, is self-defeating.
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 8:20:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sm80808
PCB, I hope you don't take this as being argumentative. We are all just expressing what we think, and let me say, I respect your opinion.
SM80808,
I didn't interpret your post as argumentative at all. I think the discussion by you and all the others is healthy, educational, and thought provoking. The respect is mutual.
Aloha,
Doug
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 8:46:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Menpachi Man
whoa Doug, too many questions, especially when I am drinking beer. As I have said, I will leave it up to the scholars to define slack key or what it is. I already did two dissertions. If I think too much, it's going make my music too stiff. But good questions. After I buy the professor's book, maybe I can regurgitate what he has studied. .
Menpachi Man,
As you could see, the discussion in this thread got me thinking about a lot of things (heck, it got me thinking to 2:00A last night). Maybe I should have had a beer instead  .
I wasn't trying to single you out with the questions, as they are really questions for the entire Taropatch community (or at least for those who are into slack key). I am interested in your and other Taropatch members' opinions, and I think it's wonderful we have this online forum in which to discuss and debate. How boring would it be if everybody thought the same way or only a handful of the same people participated? I also hope people don't take my comments personally, as I'm trying to be as thoughtful, open minded, and respectful as possible.
Aloha,
Doug |
Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 03/03/2009 9:00:57 PM |
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sirduke58
`Olu`olu
USA
993 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 10:56:35 PM
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quote:
originally posted by RJS
Duke, are you more interested in being right, or in getting people to know and love the roots and matrix from which slack key is born? (over and over again.)
I don't understand this statement.It insinuates that I am opposed to people discovering the roots of slack key,when in fact that is the my main motivation.
Anyway I have come to the realization that this is not truly a slack key site,it's more of a slack key influenced or contemporary slack key friendly forum. I do not belong here and it is no longer any fun. I'm wasting my time trying to get mainlanders to understand a tradition that they were not raised in.I have tried to speak on behalf of those who cannot speak freely but have pilikia with the issues at hand.I have tried to be the voice to bring attention to worries the kupuna have concerning slack key but without the necessary credentials my input carries no weight.The time I spent trying to enlighten the uninitiated could have been better spent on one of my grandchildren where it actually matters.
Just by observations since I've been a member it's obvious that most here do not have a taste for hard core old school old fashioned ki ho'alu. Some of you can tolerate poi but very few could handle sour poi as the down home local Hawaiian residents prefer. Many of the "Slack Key Artist" mainlanders prefer are like Waikiki & cellophane hula skirts, not indicative of real Hawaii.It would break your hearts if I pointed out the individuals that old timer's categorize as over the top in their slack key interpretations. Some of these performers are those that mainlanders look up to like gods but local sentiment says that's not Hawaiian and definitely not ki ho'alu.
Nobody gets excited when the subject of Gabby comes up.How many play Auntie Alice's 14 measures here or can even name a 2nd song of hers.Cyril gets very little response here cause he's too Hawaiian for the taste of most here.It's no wonder that lots of folk here are not sensitive to the traditionalist's concerns the flavor is way too strong,they'd much rather have it diluted so it's easier to go down.
Conform to the "Innovators" why? To appease them at the expense of the culture? If they venture out from a foundation in ki ho'alu then why not? But if they surround themselves with legitimate slack key artist to gain validation with the intent of exploiting the current popularity of slack key is unacceptable. Then to commend someone like that for initiating someone into the genre under false pretenses is dispicable.I once thought it was necessary to sleep with the devil for the good of slack key but nope more harm then good comes out of it.
I can go on & on with this and believe me when I say I could make it a whole lot more convincing and uglier. I'll stop here and punchuate this post by saying that as I stated earlier "I do not belong here" So this is my last post.
Andy could you delete my account in 24 hours from now. I would first like to be able to delete all my prior comments. Thank you sir |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 01:39:05 AM
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| If you think I am going to let Duke run away, you are crazy. Holo I mua. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 03:43:40 AM
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One request.
Let it pass for a while and stick around Bruddah Duke!
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Bob |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 04:02:50 AM
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Isn't there a six day waiting period for such drastic measures, Andy? I seem to recall reading such in the rules, or maybe it was the Ohio Revised Code, or something. There must be some rule that covers it.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 04:49:58 AM
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| Duke, please don't go. We need you here. You ARE making an impact on us all. You are doing the absolute correct thing by advocating, for your concerns. We need you to do it. Very sincerely, Norman. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 08:02:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
Make yourself too strident and, after a while, nobody will listen. Nobody listens and nobody gets interested in learning more about the culture.
I just want to make it perfectly clear that when you use the blanket term "nobody", you are not speaking for me. IMHO, people who were not necessarily born and raised in the culture but who really want to learn the art of ki ho'alu will not just hear, but will listen with mouths shut to be able to fully appreciate its roots and the mana'o that people like braddah Duke have been trying to convey in their frustrating attempts to keep traditional ki ho'alu alive in its original form. Because once that mana'o is lost, it's gone forever. Traditional ki ho'alu will only continue to exist in the form of 1's and 0's on digital media.
And then there are those who will pay for lessons or teach themselves to read tab just enough to learn what they need in order to play and sound good for themselves and their friends. And that's perfectly understandable too. Not everyone has the capacity nor the desire to learn and perpetuate traditional ki ho'alu in its original form, which I think has been fairly obvious from reading current and past postings on TP. This cannot be helped because it's just human nature.
But. I believe there are also those on this message board who are genuinely and truly interested in what folks like braddah Duke and da professah have to say and have been lurking and soaking it all in like silent sponges while quietly practicing in the background. These people may not be able to express themselves as eloquently as others here are able to, but I do believe that they are out there and will be the biggest losers should braddah Duke decide to make his decision to leave the lo'i permanent.
I can totally relate to his frustration. Braddah Duke, try take one shawt time-out fo cool off, regroup, drink one Diet Coke, anden brah if can, can, if no can, no can. Whateva happens brah, someday us guys going jam and grind kaukau down da beach no mattah wat.  quote:
Duke, are you more interested in being right, or in getting people to know and love the roots and matrix from which slack key is born?
Personally, I don't see this as an either/or issue. I think Duke's main interest is doing the right thing BY "getting people to know and love the roots and matrix from which slack key is born." |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 08:24:36 AM
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It is all very simple to me -- Duke loves the music. He wants us to malama the music. He wants us to malama the mo`olelo. And he wants people who purport to play "slack key" to be pono about what they are doing.
It is simple to do, but it is oh so important.
I do not want Duke to go away. I am so afraid for that to happen, because my dearest Duke has taught us all so much. We NEED him. Not only has he taught us about honoring the music, about respecting the music, but he has taught us aloha. So many of you have felt his aloha already, by his willingness to play music with you, to greet you when you journey to his home; and to share his kaukau and his family and his friends with you. He is sharing with you all the things his kumu, Ozzie Kotani has taught him, not just kiho`alu. But aloha.
Ed - I need about a truckload full of kleenex right now. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 08:53:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
So someone enters the field by means of Daniel Ho...
Honestly, I have yet to meet any young musicians here in Hawaii that have listened to or have even heard of Daniel Ho, despite the Grammy wins. Maybe that is a different case in the mainland, but I bet there is even a fewer percentage of people who care up there per capita.
quote:
Originally posted by RJS
IMO if peopple write you off because of your communications style, you will have less impact on the future direction. You will only learn from someone you will listen to. IMO that is a better goal for "the kuleana of all Kanaka Maoli and also those who possess the mana'o." than going on some crusade which, for reason given above, is self-defeating.
Who is writing who off here?
Maybe the purpose isn't to change the world but instead express a personal concern among people who want to nurture the culture and see it remain intact.
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