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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2009 : 08:59:32 AM
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quote:
.... their frustrating attempts to keep traditional ki ho'alu alive in its original form.
Ah yes, the "Original Form" argument. To which the only possible reply is "Which original form?"
Which further begs the question: "From what time period?"
Before or after 1927 (the date folkies use 'cause that's when all the great 78s were made.)
1947??? (Gabby's "Hi`ilawe")
1970's??? (The "Hawaiian Renaissance")
1990's??? (Dancing Cat)
What about 1830, the generally accepted date of the guitar's introduction to Hawaii???
Or maybe 1874, when King Kalakua was crowned??
1920's, when Kamaka was making guitars???
My point is when one makes a blanket statement about what is, and what is not traditional, one had better be ready to both defend it and accept that it is a personal choice that someone else mayl not agree with.
Sorry, but I personally have little or no use for the Music Police-- in any place, at any time. I have heard this same nonsense in the old time world, the blues world, the Jazz world, the Irish music world, the `ukulele scene, the dulcimer scene---
Who are the Music Police? They are the ones that say you can't play electric bass in a cajun band (I've been told that-- even though just about every band in Louisiana has electric bass... and drums) or you can't play "Whiskey Before Breakfast" at the Ozark Folk Center cuz it's a Canadian tune (Been told that, too. But "Wild Horse at Stony Point" was OK-- though it's Irish...) or you can't have a synthesizer in a Celtic band (had a whole tour cancelled cuz of that, while the Battlefield Band was filling concerts with bagpipes and synths) or that you can't play "sock" rhythm guitar in a bluegrass jam (heard that one, too-- even though Bill Monroe once had a band with a guitar player who did just that..), or... ad infinitum.
In short, the Music Police are people who have decided that they (and only they) are the Defenders Of Traditional Music (By God And Country), and they (and only they) know how the music is supposed to sound and how you are supposed to play it.
Right. and I am Little Mary Sunshine.
I love traditional music.. in all it's weird and wonderful forms. But I don't need a cop to tell me how to play it.
So I will continue to listen and learn.
And yes, I will continue spout my mouth off cuz I got a big head and cuz I enjoy the give and take of an honest discussion.
And if that makes you so mad you have to throw a hissy fit and storm off the basketball court with the ball... well, it was nice knowin' ya.
In my case, I find I learn more from being wrong than from being right. That is what is so valuable about forums like Taropatch... I get to be wrong so often.
We now return to our regular programming...
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guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 09:53:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John
quote:
...cuz I got a big head...
I don't think you have a big head Mark.
I do.  |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 10:57:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Who are the Music Police? They are the ones that say you can't play electric bass in a cajun band (I've been told that-- even though just about every band in Louisiana has electric bass... and drums)
In short, the Music Police are people who have decided that they (and only they) are the Defenders Of Traditional Music (By God And Country), and they (and only they) know how the music is supposed to sound and how you are supposed to play it.
Ah, yes, the infamous Music Police. I am wanted by them in every genre I play. As for Cajuns, they took to electric music the moment the instruments appeared. If you know them, they LOVE LOUD music! Cajun steel guitar is one of my specialties, btw - ahhh...EEEE "Lassez le bon temps roulez!"
IMHO, the MP's consist mainly of people who started playing European classical music - the only music I know where wrong or right matters. Of course, "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing". |
keaka |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 2:26:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
And if that makes you so mad you have to throw a hissy fit and storm off the basketball court with the ball... well, it was nice knowin' ya...............
We now return to our regular programming...
Well, actually it makes me mad, but I am not exactly taking a hissy fit yet. Maybe I am too stupid to know when to quit and leave it alone.
What seems so distasteful to me is like that post I wrote so long ago about are mainland haoles kakaroaching the music. And I am hating to say that it sure as heck looks like it, because when Duke is only trying to make a point for respecting the roots and calling something that is so far from the roots as to be considered a different type of vegetation altogether, I am not hearing another Hawaiian local diss Duke and his opinions. I am seeing those of us to whom the culture does not belong diss Duke and trivialize how dear and important this subject is to him. He had to know that he was walking on thin ice to share his honest opinions on how important kiho`alu is to his culture. To us it is music. To him and certainly countless other locals, it is an integral, important and treasured part of the culture that has a great possibility of being homogenized so much that the cream is removed, all the butter fat and all the flavor until it is only skim milk -- white and watery.
You can electrify any kine instrument you want. You can put a wah pedal on your dulcimer if you want. But you know what, the Music Police are a figment of your imagination. Its maybe those who feel guilty for doing something that is not right, for going too fast or not stopping for the red light who are looking in their rear view mirror to see if Barney Fife is after them...or Mr. Tibbs, whoever. Maybe a little voice nagging that says uh-oh, too much, now they gonna be after me". But the Music Cop is all a figment of the guilty conscience.
And we are NOT going back to our regular program until we all make ho`oponopono.
Because worse than the Music Police is a grumpy wahine. If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 03/04/2009 3:01:11 PM |
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kihoalukid
Lokahi
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 2:48:13 PM
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| I,and i know there are many others, have thoroughly enjoyed, and been inspired (big time) by the insight & music Braddah Duke and Jay have shared here. Sure hope you will all hang around, Lee |
Lee |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 3:22:15 PM
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So sad that one bruddah can say what is in his heart and then get blasted for all manner of offence. What the heck is going on? Bruddah Duke not only expressing his naʻau which none of you all would truly and deeply understand. But he is also expressing the feelings and thoughts of most of all guitarists and Hawaiian music players in Hawaiʻi. If some of you donʻt like it too bad. First off there are qualifications that precede the ability to voice an opinion about slack key in the manner that Duke has. It does go back to events from 1820 and all that led to that fateful day in January of 1893. So in this case geneology does matter. If anyone did not have any relative in Hawaiʻi at the time they should keep their thought to themselves. The people who have lost the right to rule themselves because of the action of a few greedy people have a right to be define that music and that definition is indisputable. Yes Hawaiian music was influenced by mssionaries ad that is the one positive contribution that that group made to Hawaiʻi and its people. The evolution of Hawaiian music was mainly an Hawaiian enterprise save the teachings of Henry Berger and it was probably because he was not a greedy racist American expat. Of this group I think Mark Nelson has a right to pitch in since he actually works to perpetuate Hawaiian music. It is not fair to jump on Duke since he is right and most of you are wrong. Hawaiian historyis not dependant on what blues is or what classical music is. The evolution occurrs from most people who actually play the music in Hawaiʻi. And sadly most of the contemporary music in slack key today are artistic endeavors to keep a fickle audience interested enough to buy a CD. Just think of it this way Duke, myself and Peter and Ozzie and Cyril and George kuo and Aaron mahi and Grampa play folk music.It is usually steeped in what we commonly call old style or the real deal. Everything else is coloration. Like comparing Mississippi John Hurt to Benny Goodman. They both played the blues but which on sound more close to the origin of the genre.
If I ruffled feathers so be it.But I have held back long enough and I cannot ignore it when you people start acting like you goin lynch one bruddah. I draw the line there. Many people on this site are personal friends. Mark, Duke ,Peter,sm808 and many players. I have been playing for over thirty years. That donʻt make me an expert but I paid my dues. Most of you donʻt know the language nor do you cook and eat the food and when was the last time any of you went pick mango, guava, or mountain apple? Do you surf? Now these questions are rhetorical so donʻt waste time answering, ainokea. But all of you have good stories from your own lives and I try to respect that. Respect Duke ! |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 03/04/2009 3:57:42 PM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2176 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 3:43:18 PM
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Eh, Duke! Good you get strong feeling for ki ho'alu! A friend once told me that his instrument was really and appendage, a real part of him, for expression. Dewey Balfa (great Cajun fiddler) quoted an old man from his youth, "People can die, but a song shouldn't die." I play tunes learned from my mom's dad, from my dad that he heard his dad play, and tunes I learned from friends. Slack key was learned from a friend, I still feel the aloha when I play those tunes I learned. Remember the old guy that said, "How will you know where you are going, if you don't know where you've been?" I've known some of the music police. They seem to live in a tiny world. The lure of music is creativity: bringing order out of potential chaos. When others appreciate what we do, life takes on a new depth of meaning. Appreciating those who have gone before also adds depth.
Many other questions could be asked: Can you use the left thumb on the lowest string? Should you use thumb and 1 finger (I know I left myself open, but I trust you guys), thumb and 2 fingers, thumb and 3 or 4? Acoustic or electric? Steel string or nylon? Ad infinitum...
Some would like to have all human expression homogenized for easier marketing. It ain't gonna happen. One size does NOT fit most!
I do know this: through this forum I have met and jammed with some very good folks. I am richer for it. Do I agree with everybody on everything? No, then they would have to agree with me. More people would have to eat lute fisk in the winter, and for some that would be to much to ask. (plus da stuff plenny expensive!) Time to cook dinner, I'm fading, gasp..... |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 4:18:16 PM
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I've been thinking about this issue and ... life is much too short to waste in "them and us" crap. And since I can't read posting without wanting to reply, ... this is my last time accessing this forum, except maybe to check to concert listings.
By folks, it has been nice.
Raymond |
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braddah jay
Lokahi
235 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 01:02:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
I've been thinking about this issue and ... life is much too short to waste in "them and us" crap. And since I can't read posting without wanting to reply, ... this is my last time accessing this forum, except maybe to check to concert listings.
By folks, it has been nice.
Raymond
Crap,no it's someones honest opinion,like it or not.It's like me saying your opinion is crap.You say you're done with this forum,that's what hikabe said,but in his case I'm glad he came back.And no it hasn't been nice. |
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Claudia
Lokahi
USA
152 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 04:00:00 AM
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OK Duke, if you are reading this, you have heard from TP'ers from Ohio, Illinois, California, Washington and now New York, that don't want you to leave.
Please, please stay in the 'Patch. There are a lot of us who enjoy the spirit and passion you bring to this forum. We've learned from you and we have enjoyed you. Please stay.
I'm going back to practicing what I have been working on since last summer - a mini-set of 6 Auntie Alice Namakelua songs that I was planning to play for you and Ozzie when I get to Hawai'i. Hey, one of these songs has a second guitar part - I could send it to you and we could play it together, how about it, Duke? 
Claudia
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 07:55:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
quote:
Originally posted by Mark
And if that makes you so mad you have to throw a hissy fit and storm off the basketball court with the ball... well, it was nice knowin' ya...............
We now return to our regular programming...
Well, actually it makes me mad, but I am not exactly taking a hissy fit yet. Maybe I am too stupid to know when to quit and leave it alone.
What seems so distasteful to me is like that post I wrote so long ago about are mainland haoles kakaroaching the music. And I am hating to say that it sure as heck looks like it, because when Duke is only trying to make a point for respecting the roots and calling something that is so far from the roots as to be considered a different type of vegetation altogether, I am not hearing another Hawaiian local diss Duke and his opinions. I am seeing those of us to whom the culture does not belong diss Duke and trivialize how dear and important this subject is to him. He had to know that he was walking on thin ice to share his honest opinions on how important kiho`alu is to his culture. To us it is music. To him and certainly countless other locals, it is an integral, important and treasured part of the culture that has a great possibility of being homogenized so much that the cream is removed, all the butter fat and all the flavor until it is only skim milk -- white and watery.
You can electrify any kine instrument you want. You can put a wah pedal on your dulcimer if you want. But you know what, the Music Police are a figment of your imagination. Its maybe those who feel guilty for doing something that is not right, for going too fast or not stopping for the red light who are looking in their rear view mirror to see if Barney Fife is after them...or Mr. Tibbs, whoever. Maybe a little voice nagging that says uh-oh, too much, now they gonna be after me". But the Music Cop is all a figment of the guilty conscience.
And we are NOT going back to our regular program until we all make ho`oponopono.
Because worse than the Music Police is a grumpy wahine. If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
Oh, yes, Wanda, there is a Music Police. They are the people who appear on the scene, take it over, and dictate to the peolple who've been around for a long time on what's "right" and "wrong". I've known a guy for a long time who does just that. Thumbs & I were playing Hawaiian quietly in a living room at a party where a lot of old timey musicians were playing in the back room. This dude comes in to the living room and tells us "You can't play that. This is an old time music party." I said "I know, we're just the halftime entertainment". Then he goes out to the other room, grabs a few folks and proceeds to play so loudly in a corner of the liveing room that Thumbs & I have to stop. This guy has been driven out of a couple of scenes he invaded in Eugene and Berkely. He told the core people in Eugene that they were'nt "good enough to play at this jam", for instance. So there. |
keaka |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 07:58:22 AM
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| Hey Sir Duke! Don't go! You are one of my favorite boloheads. BTW, I'll be back on Oahu in late April for the HSGA convention and Lei Day. See ya den, fo' sure! |
keaka |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 09:30:40 AM
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Duke might not lke this and I hope he isnʻt embarrassed but he told me he is moving on to spend time teaching chidren his music. He may not have time to walaʻau idly while real time work in the real world needs to be done. He has been happy with this forum up till now but it is time to move on. Me I will continue to add whatever I can to this forum and you know if we talking about Hawaiian music maybe people should listen instead of argue when a Hawaiian shares his or her manaʻo. You wonder why we get upset it is because outsiders of a certain ilk always have an opinion that is either wrong or irrelevant to the topic being discussed. It seems that ego triumphs common sense a lot of the time. Some of us were exposed to Hawaiian music from the day we were born and you know that does count for something, we do know about the stuff we write about. it doesnʻt matter if you have a PHDMABA or any other letter after your name. Just hamau ka waha and learn something for a change. Us guys no share dis stuff for notting you know. Non Hawaiin speakers mangle the words and some of you say oh what a nice interpretation, I just admire his use of meter when he places those syllables just so. Well you know when I wrote that Hawaiian language has a tempo and a meter that matches the music and shouldnʻt be messed with, some of you guys thought it was OK to argue the point. As one who went out of his way to study the language so he would be pono you guys might want to stop and think about the lesson being shared. If you keep on spouting ego laden opinions you will see an exodus of people who are valuable resources who add to the wealth of knowledge being shared in this forum. You have seen Duke at his funniest with pidgin and you have also read how beautifully eloquent he can be too, Personally I think that some of you know it alls still think us Hawaiians are stupid. Well you know that we are not.
Some of you forget that we could not speak our language in public for 70 years, you think we should just assimilate into the culture that tried to destroy us? It is not us versus them. It is us saying respect us for who we are if you cannot do that because you are ignorant or bigoted keep your ideas to your self. It is not wrong for a non Hawaiian to resist outsiders opinions because those opinions donʻt hold water in the long run. So if people want to participate do it with the demeanor of respect and sharing and stop trying to shove your stuff down our throats. Ahh another myth dispelled. you know the one about the happy Hawaiian who is so nice to everybody. Now you know we can get angry and talk back too. This is not just about righteous indignation but about justice and the basic human right to be recognized and respected as the people who have the right to be upset when people take things from us and then forget to be grateful for what they receive. I do not speak for just myself but I stand up for my culture and my people. Its too bad that some of you donʻt understand that. We speak from our hearts and guts not from our heads.
So think deeply about the roots of Hawaiian music. Like the blues, a lot of it has come from an oppressed people trying to cope with a sad lot in life with music. Please show the respect you all talk about with action. You know most of us research the music before we even attempt to perform a song. Iʻm sure you all do the same. Some tmes their is interesting discourse like the thread about Puʻuanahulu for example. So ca we try to keep things above board and further the quest for knowledge. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 03/05/2009 09:42:01 AM |
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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 09:32:26 AM
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quote:
Originally warned by A[n]d[y]min
Let's keep this discussion from spiraling into something bad. Okay?
Way too late. Not only lock this puppy--I think you oughta remove this thread in its entirety. Much more in the way of damage has occurred than learning.
Sad, sad world.
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 10:31:22 AM
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Sorry everyone. The outcome of this thread wasn't what I'd hoped for. I've been busy at work and behind in reading posts.
I always believe that diversity makes this a better and more interesting place. Different opinions are better even if at the risk of feelings being hurt.
I should have heeded the warnings to lock this post earlier. Sorry. Probably should be deleted immediately too, but I will think on it a while. |
Andy |
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