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lexluthier
Aloha
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2003 : 03:37:34 AM
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In addition to all the good suggestions given by Mark Hanson, there's some new info on the subject. In a letter from Thomas R. Blank, Assistant Administrator for Security, Regulation and Policy, Transportation Security Administration (TSA) to Hal Porter, American Federation of Musicians dated January 17, 2003, the TSA has a newly revised policy and procedure regarding the screening and carriage of musical instruments on aircraft.
"On December 20, 2002, TSA instructed aircraft operators
that effective immediately, they are to allow musical
instruments as carry-on baggage in addition to the limit of
one bag and one personal item per person as carry-on
baggage on an aircraft."
2) "Additionally, these revised procedures were communicated
to our TSA screeners at the passenger checkpoints
throughout the country. Should the membership experience
problems at the security screening checkpoint, they are
advised to request to speak to the screening supervisor for
resolution."
This sounds like great news, but I still wonder, since the word "membership" was used, if it could possibly only apply to card carrying union members, or if once through the checkpoint, if the instrument could still be refused at the gate for lack of space on the plane. Some more research should probably be done, and I'm curious as to whether hard cases as well as soft cases are included in this provision.
If all this is in fact true, having to wear a necktie would be a mute point.
Steve
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rd2ruin
Akahai
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 08:31:26 AM
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A friend of mine flew from Philly to Paris, then from Paris to Birmingham. He told me years ago that you're s'posed to loosen the strings before flying. But he tired from all the broken strings, and wanted to play a little in Charles De Gaulle airport during a layover. Fine so far. When he got to the UK, the neck at the head splintered.
Everyone knows this, but it bears repeating:
LOOSEN YOUR STRINGS!!!
Since they allowed him to 'carry-on' the guitar, he didn't think that the basic rules of travelling applied. He's usually pretty careful handling his guitars, so I'm wondering if the rapid altitude climb from Paris to Birmingham contributed to the fragileness of the neck.
No, it wasn't me :) I dont have the financial means to jet set through Europe these days :\
- Greg |
When you get a moment, could you do me a favor and explain to me what I was just talking about? |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 10:29:46 AM
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Since we have a Genuine Luthier available, I may get corrected on this--but I've never heard of mere pressure-change damaging a guitar's structure. If the instrument traveled in the cabin, then there should not have been enough pressure or temperature change to affect anything--you'd get a bigger temp change moving around in Minnesota in winter (which all my instruments do constantly).
Everything I've read or heard suggests that the main cause of headstock breakage is impact--most often falling off a stand, but also very commonly having the case fall on its back. If I were forced to take only one packing precaution, it would be to immobilize the headstock inside the case. You will get conflicting advice about loosening the strings, but not much about the importance of packing cloth or paper around the headstock.
The best single compendium of advice on this subject is Frank Ford's:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Packing/packing1.html
Note that Frank favors loosening the strings, but you will come across traveling pros who don't bother with that part--though as a suspenders-and-belt obsessive-compulsive, I do.
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 11:05:31 AM
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I was going to post the same link that Russell did. IMHO, you need to pack the headstock tightly so that it's almost difficult to close the case. As Russell mentioned, you need to protect against whip lash if the case is dropped or falls. That is the big worry.
There are various schools of thoughts regarding loosening the strings. I think at the workshop at the Beamer camp, Steve (lexluthier) recommended loosening the strings when travelling. Others say that it is good to have the string tension and that it might help counter the impact of a fall. I usually loosen the strings but a couple times, I forgot to do it.
And the last bit of advice (that Duke remembered me by), blue painter's tape. If you choose to tape your latches to protect them from being banged up, blue painters tape works nicely since it stays well but removes without a sticky residue.
May your travels be fun and safe and your guitar in one piece. |
Andy |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2003 : 5:19:38 PM
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Yo,
There is no doubt whatsoever that loosening the strings will reduce the chance of Headstock and/or Saddle breakage for most modern Guitar constructions. This is simple mechanical engineering, and I do not think there is a competent Luthier in business that would disagree with this. When the strings are at full tension (assuming medium gauge steel) there are about 120 pounds of force pulling on your saddle and headstock. (Imagine a person standing on your Headstock and you will get the point) All it takes is a little frontal over-excursion of the headstock (like from being slapped down toward the front of the guitar in (or out of) the case) for most of that force to be applied directly to the headstock, snapping it just above the nut. This is one of the most common forms of guitar travel breakage. The opposing truss rod distance is limited (by design) to a very small deflection (it basically compresses the back-wood of the neck to oppose PART of the string force). You do not need to loosen the strings all the way to gain much of the benefit of this headstock force reduction. After THREE breakage events, I have learned to tune down about two octaves. The only penalties are, 1) that when you bring the tension back up a string might break, and 2) it may take a few minutes before the guitar tuning will stabilize. If you have to go on stage immediately this may be a problem, but this have never been my particlular problem  !!
...Lawrence
P.S. Lex- I am the one who asked you about the Hemholtz resonance frequency that you design for at George's workshop a few years back.
I think the question befuddled a few at the workshop at the time. I remember that the answer was A-sharp - right??
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 05/17/2003 5:29:23 PM |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2003 : 7:11:58 PM
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Unless you have a Taylor.  I'd heard this, so I checked their FAQ's. Sure enough, it may protect your headstock but they warn of long-term unrecoverable neck damage, a back bow unless you also loosen the truss rod. They recommend not loosening anything!
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/reference/faqs_answers.html#faq13 See the Q&A that starts, "As a professional musician..." |
Pauline |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2003 : 11:45:59 PM
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To quote the Taylor site:
" Many players and repairpersons believe it's best to de-tune a guitar for long-distance flights, due to changes in air pressure and temperature in the baggage compartment. We don't recommend doing so, because if you de-tune a guitar for any length of time, you also have to loosen the truss rod. Otherwise, the neck may develop a back bow, and it could prove difficult to completely correct that. In other words, you actually could do long-term damage to the instrument by loosening the strings and not loosening the truss rod at the same time. On a Taylor guitar, it's best to simply leave it as is, even on relatively long flights. Otherwise, just use your best judgement when it comes to traveling with your Taylor. For example, don't leave it sitting in a car for any length of time, because not only can it be stolen, but the extreme temperatures can cause serious damage resulting in costly repairs."
Herein lies the rub: What is the definition of "any length of time" It is kind of like what the definition of IS is. (as we all know the definition of iz is Kamakawiwo'ole) I would agree with Taylor if the length of time was weeks. Also they mention that slacking the strings is to protect from "changes in air temperature and pressure". NOT!! Slacking the strings protects the guitar from sudden acceleration (like being slammed down on the tarmack)! It takes bith time and high temperature for the wood to "take a set" from the torsion bar tension. A few hours in an airplane will not do this. They also mention this is advice from "repairpersons". You may note that Steve Grimes disagrees with this recommendation and he is NOT a repairperson. Also I believe that the Santa Cruz Guitar company, among others, would also disagree.
Now you have all the range of options. Steve Grimes has indicated (in the Kahumoku Maui workshops at least) that he recommends slacking all the way "until just before the strings fall off". Taylor recommends not slacking, I recommend slacking somewhere in-between.
By the way I own several Taylors and I sometime slack them considerably (for months at a time) just to reduce the lifting of the top behind the saddle (a common problem with Taylors). Part of Taylors great sound is a strategic reduction in the mass (i.e. thickness) of the Top and Bracing. This results in greater warping over time of the top. All Guitars with saddle anchored strings experience this problem to some degree (Grimes has a patented method to solve this problem). My old (30 years) Guild has this problem too, but to a lesser degree than my 12 year old spruce top Taylor Dan Crary and my 8 year old Limited Edition customized Taylor Koa/Cedar.
I.M.H.O.
(Steve G - you may want to chime in here!!)
...Lawrence
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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duke
Lokahi
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 04:44:03 AM
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Just got back from four interisland airplane rides on Aloha Airlines--gate checked my guitar everytime and had no problems. I loosened strings, wadded some spare underwear and socks around the headstock, used Andy's Blue Painter's Tape (yes, for which I will always remember him by) on the latches. Maybe I'm being naive, but it seemed everyone at Aloha, TSA, etc, seemed especially interested in taking care with my guitar, asking questions about it, etc. I did notice a couple of passengers on one of the flights to Kona travelling with guitars in soft gig bags. They walked right onto the plane with nary a problem.
Duke |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 1:07:28 PM
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Yes- you will get away with carrying on a guitar in a soft gig bag some of the time. I have done this myself at least 4 or 5 times. But you should see the faces of the people when they are refused boarding with them. I watched this process in Honolulu a few years ago (Hawaiian Airlines I think). The person argued strongly the he was a Pro and that his guitar was worth thousands. He was told that he had to gate check or forfeit the flight and his ticket was non-transferrable and non-refundable. They also demanded that he sign a damage waiver. He decided to gate check afterall. Needless to say when we arrrived in San Francisco his guitar was broken. Last time I saw him was he was arguing with the damage claims people in the "odd size luggage" area at SFO.
I do not like to take this kind of chance anymore!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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lexluthier
Aloha
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 2:20:17 PM
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I always ship my guitars with no string tension, and with the headstock completely immobolized with bubble wrap, so that the case has to be pressed closed slightly. The common headstock breakage right behind the nut for guitars shipped on airplanes is most often caused by case droppage, where the saddle part of the case that supports the neck, sometimes only in one place (behind the nut) acts as the fulcrum and the weight of the headstock/tuners breaks the neck at that point.
I was amazed to find that Taylor ships a brand new 12 string(!!!) with what I would call heavy guage (for a 12 string - .013" - .056")
strings tuned up to a step below pitch. For me, this seems like courting disaster, but hey, what do I know? They make a lot more guitars than I do. They'd have to repair whatever came back broken, so I guess they know what they're doing. They have bolt-on necks, which are a little easier to change out than a glued dovetail. Very difficult if not ridiculous to use bolt-ons on an arch top.
To help prevent damage to the top and back, I also put extra layers of cardboard inside the shipping box on both sides of the case. This however will not stop a fork lift prong from penetrating through the box, packing cardboard, Calton case, and (ugh!!!) right through the soundboard of a brand new arch top. Yup, this happened to me a few years back. |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2003 : 3:22:31 PM
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| You'll only know when you try it. Just back from Kaua'i. I agonized about taking my RainSong for just a week, but I thought it would be a good test. I followed all of the suggestions in this post and true to form, United managed to crush my hard-shell case enough to split it stem to stern along the top. The guitar made it through, though, although I'm not sure a wood body guitar would have survived. I duct-taped the case together to get it home. The airlines made me sign a release on the return trip. Next time, I'm going to send it Fed Ex and insure it. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2003 : 4:37:54 PM
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How much does it cost to ship Fedex to Hawaii?
Will they ship to your hotel?
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 06/02/2003 11:34:04 PM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2003 : 5:09:08 PM
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It depends on the weight and where you're shipping from. You can check rates at www.fedex.com and www.ups.com.
And yes, they'll ship to a hotel although you probably want to advise the hotel ahead of time so they know it's coming. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 06/02/2003 5:10:00 PM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2003 : 8:16:55 PM
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Larry,
Sarah and I have shipped guitars (and other things like wet suits) to many places in the Islands, both Fedex and UPS. Fedex is about $20 more expensive. Don't know what bang you get for the extra bucks. From CT to Maui, it is about $100 one-way, forced 2-day air. On the way back it is about $75, not forced 2 day air (still air all the way, but I don't remember the time lag - about 3 -4 days). For some strange reason, it was only $80 to and from the BI. Can't remember HNL. Both shippers are not gentle, but the box takes the grief and the peanuts minimize it. We have had some wonderful holes and splits in the cardboard, but nothing like what the airline monkeys do. The regs say that your packing must withstand a 20 foot drop.
For a guitar, in a box, you pay for the "Dimensional Weight" a formula of WxLxHx(unknown factor) that gives the cost. For our guitars and cases and packing, the dimensional weight has come out to about 33lbs. equivalent.
Your shipping from CA should be much less (about 1/2?).
Every Condo, hotel and B&B we ever sent them to, accepted them, no problem. They are used to it. Condo dwellers ship themselves stuff all the time. We always tell them to expect the box(es) and they always have appeared for us at the office. I called today and arranged it for our condo (for our wetsuits and stuff).
Having said all that, we have decided to take our guitars, in their Caltons, on the plane with us (United) this time. It is as much a test of the Airline and the non-system as anything else. At the worst, we will get hit $80 each x 2 = $160 each, if the ticket agent has a hair across her/his `okole. (We are very sure it is dependent on the person we encounter, from all reports.) Also we are e-ticketed and will check in via credit card and only see a baggage handler who (we hope) is not equipped with a credit card swiper and may be more amenable to sweet talking). We also have a prepared rap to do the sweet talking and a copy of that Union letter as backup. If we get nailed by UAL on the way out, we will UPS/Fedex them back. There is a MB Etc. in Kihei for the boxes, if we need them.
We will let everyone know how we make out (or don't) in July, when we return.
Were we traveling from CA, it would be a no-brainer. UPS/Fedex all the way.
...Reid (who is fearful) |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2003 : 8:38:49 PM
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Terry,
Ouch! I'm glad the axe made it thru ok though.
Has anyone else considered Bruces' invention? His guitar cases?
I certainly have, and thats the way I'm gonna go. He (Bruce Lamb) had quite the discussion going on another forum concerning those cases.
I think someone posted some info about it on TaroPatch, but I don't remember.
In short, they are extremely (read EXTREMELY) tough cases, at a much lower cost than the premium ones (Calton etc)
I'll try to dig up the info from the other forum unless Bruce or someone else beats me to it.
Sarah and Reid....best of luck in your Island adventures, may your instruments arrive in perfect condition.
aloha to all,
Mike |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2003 : 8:59:36 PM
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Yes, I posted in the share-a-link section a while back:
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=601
I've never seen the case, but I figure if George Kahumoku can stand on it... I also have not seen the other discussions about the case, but my only concern was its size. Basically, if the airline is going to charge you an extra $80 bucks for your regular guitar case than no difference. But, with say a Calton, at least you have a chance of carrying it onto the plane. I think with Bruce's design the strategy is pretty much to check it with your luggage.
Just depends what strategy you want to take. |
Andy |
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