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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2003 : 4:40:58 PM
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I'm with you Raymond. I am saving my typing for the Atta's C thing. But I couldn't resist putting in a Barry thing. The Barry thing was a joke. Actually, the a.m.h debate was always about whether Barry thought his *body* was so buff that he was stuck-up and snotty. A certain violin player / real estate agent (everyone in the Islands is a real estate agent :-) would not be convinced that his "Men in Skirts" CD cover wasn't an attempt to make all the haoli hula maidens hot for his bod. Isn't that a gas!
Sorry to make this thread further degenerate (in at least 2 senses).
...Reid |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2003 : 4:52:59 PM
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I got the joke part.
My wife says if I looked half as good as Barry we could live off my playing. Barry does, however, play guitar just a bit better than me.
Raymond |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2003 : 7:34:33 PM
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Raymond, we will defer judgement on your wife's artistic assessments. However, Barry has more than a few tricks, apart from his obvious talents. I have had a couple of opportunities to observe him closeup (not personal). Basically, he is a shredder. There are thousands of shredders in NJ alone, where he comes from. Basically, he looks like about 100 guys I see every day in the Greater Metro Area. Basically, he relies on a little parametric equalizer/preamp that is at his feet that allows him to override the bozo on the board, so that he sounds better (doesn't matter that his guitar has a hole worn away in the top or that he loses a pick in the middle of shredding) and louder than everyone else on stage. (I bought one for Sarah - tee hee.) He has certain talents that he has directed in certain ways. One of which is his aesthetic and compositional talent that allows him to sound as if he were Hawaiian. We like him a lot, but (you/him) living off his playing? I don't think so. Hardly anyone lives off playing - at least, not well. Barry probably squeaks by, but I wouldn't trade places with him. I like my girl friend a lot better than his, too :-)
...Barry, NOT |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2003 : 8:33:01 PM
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To all - this will tie into the Keola thread. Patience.
Reid,
Now we talk serious -
I do like Hapa stuff - and I admire Barry's playing. However, I've now seen him twice in a small cafe setting where he's not plugged in to anything fancy (I know 'cause once I sat 1st row) - as much as I hate to say it, the performance was disappointing. His Hapa stuff was still fine, but aside from that - his take on a few standards was not particularly noteworthy, and his new stuff seemed more like he was rehashing the old stuff. One time, call it a bad night. Two times - hm. So I said, well he's getting over the Hapa split, let's see what he comes up with. -- In truth, I think I hold up guys like Barry to a higher standard. Those of us pure "amateurs" - well, using other people's material, relying on a bag of tricks, having a small repetoire, making some mistakes -- no big deal. "Amateurs" should be music lovers - and the love of the music needs to come through. "Professionals" - that's different. Then I got Barry's solo album - I just listened to it, and I got to my destination with two cuts remaining - and I didn't sit there to finish it. I would still consider going to a Barry concert - and I'd really like to hear him jam. Just that he's now on a slightly smaller pedestal.
Contrast to Keola's latest -- (See, I told you it would get here) - I admire Keola for trying something new. That's why he's at the top, egde, whatever. For me, nothing else would do.
I'm not trying to slam Barry - just using the contrast to point out why I think Keola is still on the pedestal (Others are there two - like Ozzie, Steve Sano, gonna stop naming 'cause if I forget someone I might hurt feelings.)
Finally --
I am very very very grateful to George Winston for Dancing Cat - can't say enough -- however, I also think that the very processed sound is, in the long run, deterimental to music. We need "real" recordings so we can set realistic expectations, and learn how it "really" sounds.
That said - my only criticism of Keola's new album is what I think is an over-reliance on the reverb. It starts to feel like he's usig it to boost his voice, as opposed to using it 'cause the interpretation calls for it at that point. (See, even here I'm back to Keola) I guess I'm critical enough even to critizise the man on the top of the hill, though I'm not trying to know him off.
Raymond
San Jose |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2003 : 10:44:45 PM
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| Raymond, are you saying that the Dancing Cat stuff is overly processed? In what way? (Just curious.) |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2003 : 11:49:55 PM
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Well, I have it from three Dancing Cat artists that the usual way of recording is for them to play a number of takes - anywhere from 6 to over a dozen, then George and his engineer cut and paste a final version. That's why they are letter perfect.
Craig, this just plugs into a general thing I have about today's recording industry -- There is so much emphasis on note for note perfect that it skews everybody's expectation of what music is about. Perfect example - recently was in Chicago - went to Chi Symphony summer festival at Ravinia Park. Heard an incredibly beautiful, soul-filled performance (details withheld on purpose) - overheard on the way to car someone say, "Boy, the CD had much more presence, and you know the trumpet player made a couple of mistakes. I guess they're starting to slip." Obviously said by a person who is not passionately involved in classical music - and that is my point. Short time later I went to hear a young lady who won grammy for best song. At intermission I overheard a guy and gal all amazed saying "Wow, she sounds just like the CD." All I can say is the next day when I read the review in the Trib which took her to task for a lifeless performance, I felt vindicated.
Now I know that playing the right notes in the right timing, etc is not opposed to feeling and interpretation. But for me, I'm glad that I got to love Chopin from my Rubenstein recordings, mistakes and all! And as much as I treasure my Dancing Cat recordings - and we all owe George a huge dept of gratitutde for what he has done for slack key - I'm sure glad I've got Waialae Jammin, Turtle & Rabbit Islands, etc etc to balance those out.
Raymond |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2003 : 12:55:08 AM
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I just got back from my evening walk and thought I should add something to my last post -- this is a more accurate statement of my problem with modern recording techniques --- please 'scuse typos--
Modern composer, musician and teacher (Berkely & Princeton) of music - Roger Session gave a series of lectures which became the book "The Musical Experience of Composer, Performer, Listener." One of the first things he does is to define the musical experience. He says something I think is very important. The primary musical experience is that of making music - of playing music. Our music industry creates an atmosphere in which that is completely forgotten. Whenever there is almost as much, or more, editing than playing - the whole thing gets out of kilter.
Personally, I'm struggling with this. I'm trying to finish up a CD -- philosophically I'm against anything except a little touch up - maybe adjust a volume level, add some reverb - that kind of thing. On the other hand there's a part of me that wants to get in there and create as "perfect" a recording as I can - meaning no wrong notes, not even a slight lapse in timing, no string noise, excellent articulation, perfect intonation, and tons of feeling. No matter how much I try, I'm still very much influenced by todays recording industry - and I don't think for the better.
Raymond
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2003 : 9:50:38 PM
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That said - my only criticism of Keola's new album is what I think is an over-reliance on the reverb.
OK, now we are talking about something that I actually have some experience with. (Barry's relative merits as a cheesecake icon notwithstanding, most of the guys I know who wear kilts have much hairier legs...)
As a recording engineer and record producer, I know that there are those who want the "nothing artifical in the mix, damit" sound. As a recording engineer and record producer, I also know that this doesn't really exist. The very fact of recording anything changes it. Even the finest mic is going to color sound -- we select mics and pre-amps based on what they bring to the equation, after all. And we listen to recordings reproduced from two, or at best 6, finite points in space -- each speaker with it's own sound.
OK, so some people like a "natural" sound on the guitar (or orchestra -- been there, done that, too). If I told you all the processing that went into achieving that "unprocessed" sound you'd probably gag.
Here's the deal: there are two basic ways to look at a recording: it's either a photogragh or a painting. A photograph purports to be an accurate recreation of the event... sorta. Look at a snapshot of your trip to the Sierras and then look at an Ansel Adams picture of the same thing. Nuff said...
The other way to look at a recording is as a painting. As with a painting, the goal is to create an overall impression, layer by layer.
Is either approach better that the other? Not in my opinion.
I like the Dorian Records sound. Very real. Here's how they get it: they position the ensemble in a hall with fabulous acoustics, pack them in odd configurations to take advantage of the hall's special qualitties, constrain them not to move a musicle save what is needed to play the piece, and track take after take (after take).... which they then edit into a "natural" sounding performance.
I also like the way Steely Dan records. Which is tedium taken to the nth degree, as far as I've read.
So, is Mohala Hou a simple document of how Keola performed those songs on a given day? Not a chance. That was not the intention.
He wanted a radio-friendly mix. And it's on the radio. Bingo. I think that's cool.
Is there a lot of processing? Yep. On the vocals. One the drums. On the bass. On the nose flutes. On the `ukeke, fer goodness sake. (I'm particularly proud of the `ukeke sound, thank you very much.)
Did we use too much? Hey, if you think we did, then we did. If you think we didn't, then we didn't. It's like ice cream -- there's a reason there are so many flavors. We all like diferent things.
Do I like everything on the record? I'll never tell.
I'm just glad we can all have fun talking about this stuff. Is this a cool web community or what?
Mark - aka "Buzz Faders" |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 12:22:16 AM
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Mark,
I enjoyed your relpy. I was involved in 2 recordings with the CHicago Symphony Orch. & Chorus -- done at Medina Temple -- absolutely incredible acoustics - you accurately hinted at the set up - one recording was dozens and doens of takes - whole movements, sections - the engineers did a bang up job. The other - well the conductor, Carlo Maria Guilini - said he wants a one take recording, no rehearsal, no dubbing (In truth the CSO played the piece - Brahms 4th. a lot so everyone know it, and they played it at 4 subscription concerts the week before recording. But there was no "rehearsal." The day before the first performance, Maestro G "talked" through the piece - sharing with the oprch. his vision.) Sure there was a lot of thought given to musician placements, micing, etc. As you say - anytime you record you're gonna change things, so you gotta make choices. But - once the baton was lifted, there was no stopping till the last note finished resonating (except for the required pauses between movements.) -- That is without doubt THE most exciting and satisfying recording of Brakms 4th that I have ever heard - and sionce that is my favorite symphony, I've heard a lot.
That said -- my real gripe with modern engineering is that it creates an idealized image of musical performance - which live performance, except maybe by very few absolute masters, can never attain. And the way things are working in our society - that false ideal is believed to be more "real" or "valid" than the performed versions. Good Lord, until relatively recently, even "classical music" was written for "amateur" performers.
One of my friends used to work at Yosemite and she has great stories of how people came to park headquarters upset about what happened to the park - it no longer looked like Ansel Adams pictures of it.
The darkroom was missing - that's all. I sure wouldn't mind owning an Ansel Adams photo of Yosemite, butI also hope people won;y mistake the real thing for Adams artistic vision.
Raymond |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 09:02:30 AM
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Aloha kakou,
Interesting stuff being said here.
May I add, that while I don't know which is the chicken and which is the egg, in my experience, classical music/musicians have contributed greatly to the premium on perfection in a performance. Highly critical of the least deviation from the score, any faults in technique, etc.... (To me, sometimes it can seem like it's really the pride of the critic that is being revealed, the critic's pride in his/her own knowledge of the music and musical technique – a kind of snob-ism.)
Since classical music and musicians preceded recording technology, I kinda wonder if the recording technology wasn't just a response to the demand that musicians of that ilk were putting on it....
And – to continue the theory that is mine – as music began to be heard more on recordings than live, people's impression of how music "should" sound changed, and the perfect performance imperative became pervasive.
`O ku'u wahi mana'o wale nö.
aloha,
Sarah |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2003 : 7:58:09 PM
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My 2 cents worth as primarily a consumer of recordings, not a maker of recordings at all: I have really enjoyed the many MP3's I have of skilled amateurs, occasional flubs and all. It is still good music and I listen to it repeatedly. But... that endearing little flub, on the third play through completely loses its charm. On the fifth play, it is damn annoying, so I need to stop listening for a while (OK, it takes more than 5). If I had paid the going rate for a CD with as many flaws as I find on my friends' MP3's, I would not be happy. I appreciate the effort made to perfect a professional performance and also to record the richness of the music with the very best technology. (Besides, a good hall will give a voice some reverb. Classical guitarists are always hieing off to a stone church to record.) And I also love the MP3's of Brazilian music that one gifted amateur has recorded on classical guitar, even when he slips.
Now, shall I give you my opinion of amplifying via pickups? No, let's save that for another day. |
Pauline |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2003 : 12:49:41 AM
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Hey Sarah,
Don't mean to single out slack key or George Winston.
As far as I'm concerned, Glenn Gould has a very special place in Hell.
Raymond |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 10:48:32 AM
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So, Raymond, you got something against Gould's singing along with Bach?
Actually, I *love* his second recording of "The Goldberg Variations", humming included. (Note that one of the variations sounds like the basis for "On Blueberry Hill" :-)
...Reid |
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Maureen
Aloha
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 5:20:11 PM
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Hey, Guys!
I'm just basically in need of some human contact over Ki Ho'alu (I suppose my alterior motive for writing).
Well, I'm surprised that Mohala Hou has been growing on me, especially Ku'u Home (Kahalu'u? I never say that word right!). I like that Keola found another musician that he connected with so well. But I do hope Keola doesn't stray too far away from his "roots," that this was just an experiment and not a new trend, that Jazz will be just a side venue for him. But I don't know the guy, how "modern" he wants to get. I will be one very sad puppy if he strays too far from his roots. I am already starting to pull away from his music and what I call "moonlighting", listening to the older-style Hawaiian music, even the falsetto. Somebody please tell me that's not what is happening.
Haumana #92 |
Me ke aloha,
Maulena |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2003 : 6:30:08 PM
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Maureen,
Horray for you! The world of Hawaiian music is extremely beautiful, and slack key is only a part. Listen to that stuff - try some of the newer non-slack key. Then come back to slack key with what you've learned. It will enrich you and your slack key. You might even bring in a song or two that isn't part of the standard slack key repetoire, pick up a lick, get a hold on some phrasing - who knows?
Raymond
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