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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2010 : 2:06:55 PM
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Ya know, folks, when you start a thread with a statement likequote:
i know this topic is going to probably open a can of worms, sorry
orquote:
I know this is going to cause a maelstrom, but here goes
please don't act so shocked when people disagree with you, or even take you to task for bringing up the topic in the first place.
Yes - you can talk about whatever subject you like and express whatever opinion you like. And others can then weigh in with opposite attitudes, opinions and values. As a friend puts it (apologies for the gender reference): "pull up your big-boy pants and deal with it."
So, if you plan to start "instigating" (to refer to an excellent post elsewhere) a thread where some part of you thinks something along the lines of those openings noted above ... pause and think hard about WHY you are starting that thread.
And maybe reconsider. |
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Bau
Lokahi
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 4:54:14 PM
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well when i refered to 'can of worms' I ment that there would be opposing opinions on the answers to my questions, not that people would be taking great offence at my asking them at all. That much realy surprises me.
These are just honest questions about real life stuff, that I don't see anything wrong asking. i don't think i asked in a way that was intended to be 'instigating' i was hoping for some sincere insight. I don't think i pointed a finger at anyone either or said anything accusational.
When i first started reading about Hawaiian culture and many of the beautiful stories and philosophies such as the meaning of aloha, I was quite moved by it. I wish this was more embraced. I understand too though about the controversy and anquish of the native people who have lost their lives and homelands because of the greed and ignorance of others that came later. I read a lot of conflicting things that I've wonder about, like also how the Hawaiians were actualy at war amongst themselves before anyone else came there (or the war clubs I've seen are all fakes)and were realy as peaceful as those philosphies would suggest. In general I think it is very sad there is and has been so much hurt and conflict. In the Islands, and now expressing itself on this board. I guess thats human nature on this planet of the apes.
Rather than continue to offend y'all further, or take up bandwidth in an obviously unwelcome way, I will refrain.
Mahalo to everyone who has replied with kind , understanding and informative answers. Aloha Nui Loa |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 5:17:04 PM
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I'm going to guess that you just don't understand what you are saying here and not trying to insult anyone. Aloha is alive and well but you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of the history of Hawaii. King Kamehameha united the Islands and shortly after his death, the Kapu system was eliminated. This system as well as the wars between the Islands were often quite brutal. A man could be bludgeoned to death while he slept. This does not negate Aloha. You sound to me like so many tourists who come and are disappointed when they are not met by smiling, barefoot "natives" putting leis around their heads and doing anything the tourist dollar can buy all with an adoring attitude. Used to be if you landed in Honolulu, there were lei greetings supplied by the Tourist Authority, but the funds are no longer there. It was a fantasy anyway. A lei should be given with love and gratitude. It is a spiritual gift with much meaning. It is never thrown away but given back to nature.
Hawaii is a truly wonderful and magical place to visit (if you stay away from Honolulu). But you had talked about a fantasy of moving here someday. Probably not a very good idea until you do quite a bit of homework and spend a lot of time here. It really can be paradise or it can be the opposite. It's all up to you. What it's not is some kind of coconut fantasy.
Your post really can be read as quite insulting, but I'll choose to take it as benign ignorance. |
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Bau
Lokahi
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 12:11:55 AM
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I must be ingorant because I thought Aloha stood for things like peace and love. Bludgeoning people isn't peace and love. but it sounds like King K knew what was. Also you reading your own ideas into how i see things and judging me in this way is an ignorance too innit? I understand what i am saying, do you understand what you are saying? yes I am ignorant thats why I am ASKING QUESTIONS. Most posts arent ment to be insults, only observations.
I certain don't expect some tourists dream in any way, I live in a 'touristy' area here, thats not what I'm about at all. I don't believe in 'eutopia' it doesn't exist, but would just like to find a place where the people and culture promote similar ideals as myself. I grew up half my childhood in Arizona and witnessed a lot of predudice some there resulting in violence, some against me for being an 'outsider', I'd like to avoid that , so its one of my concerns. Also mabee a warmer place to live where I can grow my own food year round and has a steady climate that wont agivate my arthritis.
And I don't have a 'coconut fantasy', but quite frankly I do consume and awful lot of it for my health. We don't have trees here so its not as fresh as I would prefer. |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 04:05:42 AM
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Eh, I'm not "reading anything into what you say," just reading what you say. Just looking at your second sentence. From your previous posts, I can guarantee Hawaii is not the place for you to live. Please come and visit. You would love The Big Island and probably have the time of your life at the Waikoloa resort. But if you live here, you will experience prejudice of some sort at some time. There is real life here, not fantasy. You will have a very hard time finding a job unless you are in the health care field and even then you will not be given priority for hiring. You may get stink eye sometimes from locals. There is a drug problem here as in many other places but ice is particularly bad. Two out of every three people who move her from the Mainland leave within two years. At higher elevations it is cold and rainy. At lower elevations there are giant centipedes, little fire ants, mosquitoes, and spiders. There are tsunamis, hurricanes, on the Big Island there are volcanoes and earthquakes. There's a pace of life I can guarantee you are not used to. Gas is expensive and so is food and just about everything else that has to be shipped in.
You will always be an "outsider" no matter how long you live here. I still don't understand why you started this whole thing. You found a two year old story and tried to use it to prove there is no "Aloha" in Hawaii. It seemed to me that this story burst a fantasy bubble that you had.
And by the way, His name was Kamehameha, not King K. And he could be brutal. Incest was part of the culture as was homosexual sex. Even Kamehameha had his aikane.
Try Florida. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 04:35:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by no ka oi
Come with a sense of humility and love of the land and you will find something close to paradise. I am white, haole, and a musician. When I first came I presented my music with humility and was welcomed by many Hawaiians and locals who I count among my many friends.
I usually feel the need to say so much. But this is the equivalent of everything I am feeling about this thread. The experience described here has been my experience too.
As for whether or not the thread is relevant or welcome, we have, in fact, had this discussion before... right here. It has taken various forms, but the message was still the same. So I don't find it any less welcome now.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 05:26:06 AM
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I should keep my mouth shut.
But I disagree with no ka oi. His overt anger and vindictive assumptions about Bau are unfair. Bau brought up a topic that is kind of touchy, but it was a chance to speak plainly and about a real problem and how to deal with it. This would be a good place to talk about how we have overcome stink eye and found the aloha spirit by coming to Hawai'i with the right attitude.
Instead, a few try to pick a fight with Bau. Others try to act like they're kama'aina-kanaka and get offended because someone brought up the topic. Enough already.
Racism is a problem that sometimes leads to violence, but is generally limited to some stink eye.
You would be welcome in Hawai'i, Bau. As others have said, humility and a non-judgemental outlook is the key. There are many ways to experience the beauty of the islands.
Finding a good music jam session with local folks is a little harder to do and that's why many of us take part in workshops and festivals, which are a way to support the artists we love. At these events, malihini are always welcome.
Jesse Tinsley
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 05:46:30 AM
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Sorry, Jesse, but you are not correct in some things you say. First, I have no overt anger towards Bau. I do take exception to her using a two year old article about a murder on Oahu to question life in Hawaii and the spirit of Aloha. In her own words she doesn't want to feel like an outsider. Well, she always will here. These Islands are small and families are all related either by blood or friendship. The culture here is like no place else and she obviously has a scant understanding of what the culture is all about. She questions "Aloha" by bringing up "war clubs" and "tribal fighting". She is looking for a place of "peace and love" and I point out she probably won't find that here. I am doing her a favor by pointing out reality. The racism she will experience will most likely be more than just a little "stink eye" especially if she is looking for work or has kids in public school.
All that said, I love the Big Island more than I ever thought I could love a place. I love my friends here and came with a full knowledge of the culture. I am also very well aware of the warts. As I said, I think she would have a great time visiting, but from her own words this is not the place for her to live. Also, finding people to "jam" with is not all that difficult. I can't speak for Oahu. I've been there twice in 30 years.
If she has sincere questions about life in Hawaii, I am happy to answer them but from how she stated her points, it doesn't sound very sincere. Maybe just very naive. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 06:37:14 AM
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To be clear, I do not attack those who post on what most of us would consider "controversial" topics. By all means, let's get this stuff out in the open and respectfully discuss tough issues.
Where I have a problem is when people feign being hurt by someone disagreeing with them. Don't start the discussion if you can't handle the directions it's bound to take.
"I'm shocked, shocked, to find gambling on the premises!" "Your winnings, sir." |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 07:00:01 AM
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No ka oi, your first line was "When I see this kind of sh*t brought up like this, it really pisses me off". That sounds like overt anger. You say it was not directed at Bau, but she brought it up. You said later that she's trying to "prove there is no aloha". The story was a little slanted, but the murder happened and that's a fact.
You and others questioned her motive for even asking. Why not just explain the juxtaposition of the beauty of the aina, the ancient and current violence, the sweet music and the scourge of meth and alcoholism? Why let loose with the angry screed about tourist entitlement mentality? Bau admits she doesn't know much about Hawai'i. But you say her question doesn't sound "sincere". I think that's an assumption. No ka oi, I am not questioning your love of the islands. I am questioning the anger and defensiveness that might make a Taropatcher think this forum doesn't understand the aloha spirit.
I am hapa with family in Kaneohe and Waianae. But I don't get angry on their behalf. Many Hawai'i-philes who are not Hawaiian bristle at perceived slights to Hawai'i. I let Hawaiians and kama'aina speak for themselves. My Waianae cousins can definitely take care of themselves. If they get mad at you, better you run.
I was a journalist for the L.A. Times and did a couple assignments in Compton, CA back in the 1980s. I got enough stink eye from the locals there for a lifetime. It's not unique to Hawai'i.
I've been to the four main islands in Hawa'i'i and Hilo is my favorite place. An amazing landscape and wonderful people who don't seem to notice if you're white or brown. But my caucasian wife doesn't really want to go back to Maui because of the stink eye she got from locals. No violence, just stink eye. C'est la vie, in Hawai'i.
Jesse Tinsley
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 08:05:37 AM
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Man, just like I mentioned earlier. This had the potential of getting out of hand. As I hoped for and it did not materialize, there is not much thoughtful input. Here we have a person who raised a question being forced to defend herself and then we have one haole moking out and being caustic. I donʻt like the idea of this "outsider" trying to speak for us Hawaiian people. It is arrogant to take the name nō kaʻoi and then trample all over it with distasteful language and ideas that he is better than BAU because he was respectful to the local culture. Where is this respect regarding others on this thread?
I did not attack BAU but I did question why she asked such a question and then get defensive when challenged. The topic is by and large a small part of the things that go on in Hawaiʻi. As I said before Hawaiʻi is not unique in the world by being perfect. She is far from it. The culture has ideals that are highly moral in nature but not everyone lives by those ideals in their entirety. Life on an island with stone age tools called for harsh rules and regulations that were enforced fiercely. Competition for scarce resources like fresh water brought about many battles for control of those resources. Succession to the right to rule after the passing of an aliʻi nui brought about wars that were fought for the same reason. Was life in pre-contact Hawaiʻi idyllic? It was in many ways but it was also harsh and hard hearted. Some of the things that nō ka ʻoi mentioned are true but only in the extreme fringes. As I said the anger and stinkeye behaviors are rooted in ignorance and tempered with an inability to think things out and find solutions to perceived problems.
Our kupuna would shudder with disdain for our rude behavior to strangers no matter what color their skin was. As a child I remember we were held to a much higher standard of behavior designed to honor our culture and our ancestors. We faced consequences if we misbehaved and brought dishonor to ourselves, our parents and our kupuna.
We should instead be moving away from the kinds of behavior that fosters violence and murder and nō ka ʻoi does us no service by being so negative. As distasteful as the question was, maybe it needed to be asked since it seems to have touched some raw nerves in us. It is a good thing to have heated discussion from time to time but it is not OK to go beyond the bounds of civil discourse. If we violate the tenets of fair discussion we then become the violent crazy that goes around attacking people at every opportunity.
Peace on. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 10/06/2010 08:13:49 AM |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 09:52:33 AM
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Noeau -You make my point. I've lived in various places on the Big Island most of my life, but I'll always be an "outsider" a haole. I don't mind that. I'm very used to it. I can take you to places here you don't even know exist. I used to swim in Queens Bath. I've watched two beaches being formed. I saw Pu'u O'o when it was first born. This is my home more than anyplace on earth. But I'll always be an outsider a haole. Doesn't bother me one bit. It's what I am. I don't try to speak pidgin or pretend I grew up here. But this is my home. But you say I have no right to defend it. I'm an outsider. This is what I tried to explain to Bau. She said she wanted to live someplace where this wouldn't happen. I wonder how she'd feel seeing the signs along the highway on the North Shore? Her initial post did piss me off. Honolulu is not Hawaii to me. I was there for the second time in over thirty years several months ago and was pretty shocked. No Aloha, dirty water and a lot of angry drivers, just like the mainland. Can you imagine hookers on the street of Hilo?
I do feel I have a right to speak up for my home when someone questions life here. This is my home. I've worked the aina long enough and hard enough protecting it from invasives. I've taken many fiya trees out of ohia forests so the ohias can thrive. I've cut down more guava than I care to remember. I helped bring I'iwe back to 4,000 feet.
I still question why a two year old article was posted with the title, "racial tension in Hawai'i and music". As you know, tourism is pretty important here. There is enough that goes on without an old incident being brought back to life. And maybe she could tell me where there is racial tension in music, except maybe the song, Here Come That Son of a Bitchy Haole which I first heard the Sons do at Hanks many, many years ago.
So please don't speak for the Hawaiian people. I know too many who would stand up for Hawaii just as I tried to do. And, for the record, I have never once felt threatened on the Big Island. I can count on one hand how many times I've gotten stink eye. I have never been in a position where I've had to back down from "cousins". |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 10:08:34 AM
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| And for the record, when I use no ka oi, I'm referring to Hawaiian music, not myself. |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 10:58:17 AM
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'Nuff said.
Jesse |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 11:06:56 AM
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| Agreed |
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Topic |
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racial tensions in Hawai'i and music
