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sm80808
Lokahi
347 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2010 : 12:11:34 PM
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I keep posting in this thread and deleting my posts because I really don't want to add to any friction, as there seems to be enough to go around already.
quote:
Originally posted by no ka oi
Honolulu is not Hawaii to me.
I agree with you that you won't find much Aloha on our roads here on Oahu, but here you will find no shortage of Aloha among your family and friends. That's what it is all about isn't it? Honolulu is still about 1000 times friendlier than say... Dallas, TX.
Is Wade Cambern living in Hilo these days? I used to play music with him back in the day at Roy's in Hawaii Kai.
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 12:23:27 PM
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Yes, I would have to agree. 1000 times friendlier than many places on the Mainland. And I would have to say I'd rather drive in Honolulu than New York. The water at Waikiki was dirty though and driving there did give me the shakes. My experience on Oahu is admittedly limited but if I had to choose, I'd rather live there than anywhere on the Mainland. The difference from 18 years ago was startling. My feeling is that it was like a different country from the Big Island. I'm obviously partial.
Wade moved back to Oahu a couple of months ago. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 1:21:36 PM
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For the record I am Kanaka Maoli and I do not speak for all Hawaiian people. I speak for myself as a Hawaiian. I never said you can not defend the culture or the ʻāina. I said watch your language. We can not have civil discourse if you going swear. It puts the argument in a bad light. I still say that our kupuna would be appalled if we used that language in front of them. Some of the behavior we witness is the result of us not following the teachings of our parents and grandparents. And you might be able to show me some stuff and places. But my daughter and her friends can do that just as well. She graduated from Waiakea High and still lives in Panaewa.
I am not attacking you on a personal level but you should be more respectful when you protest other wise you become the very thing you are arguing against. Try to see the logic of that.
By the way I am a Honolulu boy and I know the island is messed up but it is still home to many people. I got itchy swimming at ala mo when I was in the 8th grade thatʻs how bad it is. Oh and I wouldnʻt sing Lai Toodle in the company of elders either although that is one of my favorite songs. But to put it in the proper context it is a song protesting labor practices on the plantation. A period when Asians were brought in as indentured slaves and it was a pake that said the son of a*****haole in the verse.
So any way thatʻs my story and I am sticking to it.
PS: You lived in Hilo 30 years and you donʻt know about Mamo Street? |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 10/06/2010 1:26:22 PM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 1:48:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sm80808
I keep posting in this thread and deleting my posts because I really don't want to add to any friction, as there seems to be enough to go around already.
quote:
Originally posted by no ka oi
Honolulu is not Hawaii to me.
I agree with you that you won't find much Aloha on our roads here on Oahu, but here you will find no shortage of Aloha among your family and friends. That's what it is all about isn't it? Honolulu is still about 1000 times friendlier than say... Dallas, TX.
Is Wade Cambern living in Hilo these days? I used to play music with him back in the day at Roy's in Hawaii Kai.
Thanks to Shawn, Ho'okane, Uncle Braddah, Duke, Jay, the Abrigos, Doug Fitch, Alan Akaka, Kanaka Tom, Derek Mau and many other Oahu locals, I have felt very welcome on Oahu. Playing music in back yards, at kanekapilas and hsngin' wid' da local boys is how I've experienced Aloha. It isn't hanging out along Kalakaua Ave at the hotels. As some of you know, I stay Kailua when I'm on Oahu. It's quiet and peole are very friendly. Then, when I want to see someone play in the city, I drive through the hole in the mountain to the madness that is Honolulu. I'd like to include Led and Sharon, who are from the big island, but they live in Kaneo'he. No'eau - you are dead on. It's what in the heart that counts and any relationship must start (and maybe finish) with respect. |
keaka |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 2:01:50 PM
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Of course I know Mamo Street. Where did I say I don't know Mamo St?
I didn't make up the song about the haole on horseback. I heard the Sons of Nihau do the song with IZ way too many years ago. I do know what the song is about. I also know very well the history of the plantations.
I am very sorry to see the condition of Honolulu. It makes this haole very sad. I pray this never happens to the Big Island.
If my language was offensive to you, I personally apologize. I talk like myself with plenty of kupuna and never had a complaint. I've heard much worse from some even older than I am. For the record you did complain about me defending Hawaii. "I don't like the idea of the "outsider" trying to speak for us Hawaiian people." And you called me a "haole moke." I'm not offended. I am an outsider and a haole. But that's the point I was trying to make to Bau
No matter how long she live in Hawaii, she will always be an outsider. This is what she wants to avoid. That's what I meant when I said you make my point.
This whole thing is getting out of hand. I took offense at the phrase "racial tension". It still rubs me the wrong way. But saying it pisses me off really isn't anything anyone I know would complain about. I do appreciate your coming to her defense, though. It says something about you.
Aloha |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 2:40:54 PM
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| Well Mamo street was in response to your remark about hookers. And I take back calling you one moke. But when you swear and start off like you going beef I see moke. So I react irresponsibly too. And it sounded like you was trying to speak for errybody instead of yourself. So misunderstandings occur. My bad. Any way lets move on. And as I tried to say and obviously it wasnʻt clear. Most elders do not like it when we sing risque songs or if the song has negative connotations in it. And yes many people use vulgar language but we do not need to sink to that level. You see I was taught that the spoken word has power and if we say something mean or cruel or negative it will manifest in reality and we the speaker as it were will be ultimately responsible for what happens from such careless utterances. This is a very Hawaiian cultural more. So when I see that it makes me nervous. That doesnʻt mean I donʻt swear or am a prude. I just firmly believe in the harm our spoken word may cause. So when I see someone use language in an offensive manner I take it that that person means to cause harm. I meant no offense but when you say you know the culture I assume you knew that as well so when you get corrected that is why I thought you would understand. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 2:58:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
Well Mamo street was in response to your remark about hookers. And I take back calling you one moke. But when you swear and start off like you going beef I see moke. So I react irresponsibly too. And it sounded like you was trying to speak for errybody instead of yourself. So misunderstandings occur. My bad. Any way lets move on. And as I tried to say and obviously it wasnʻt clear. Most elders do not like it when we sing risque songs or if the song has negative connotations in it. And yes many people use vulgar language but we do not need to sink to that level. You see I was taught that the spoken word has power and if we say something mean or cruel or negative it will manifest in reality and we the speaker as it were will be ultimately responsible for what happens from such careless utterances. This is a very Hawaiian cultural more. So when I see that it makes me nervous. That doesnʻt mean I donʻt swear or am a prude. I just firmly believe in the harm our spoken word may cause. So when I see someone use language in an offensive manner I take it that that person means to cause harm. I meant no offense but when you say you know the culture I assume you knew that as well so when you get corrected that is why I thought you would understand.
PS: I did complain about you but I did not say you couldnʻt speak.
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No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 3:01:41 PM
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Thank you for that Noeau. But we don't have hookers on Mamo Street. Not even any hooker in Kailua on Alii.
The internet is about misunderstandings. We project onto the written word what we hear in our head. Maybe I did go overboard but I read what I heard in my head into the original post. I was speaking for myself, not everybody. I wouldn't take that right. So it goes. I can be moke sometimes.
When I stumbled into Hanks back in the 70s, I was astounded at the music I heard. I had no idea I was watching a future legend. I also didn't realize I was the only haole in the bar. When they sang that song, heads turned my way. I had no idea what was going on. But I talked to the band on the break, helped to bring them pu pu's and had an incredible night of music.
I'm going to the beach and then dinner at Hilo Bay Cafe (yummmmm)
Aloha |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 3:44:37 PM
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Bottom line: it is all about being pono in every action you take, every thought you make, every word you speak. The hardest thing you will ever try to do.
That makes you fit in anywhere in the world -- being pono. Pono is so much more than just "behaving" or being respectful. Way, way more. The hardest is being pono with your own self. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 6:29:44 PM
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I told Uncle Danny that what is considered "Hawaiian" in courtesy, my folks would've called "old country" in the best possible sense. I grew up in the suburbs, my Mom in a small town, my Dad on a farm. My Mom's folks and my Dad's father were from Sweden and Norway, respectively, when those countries were mainly exporting people. Plenny change in just 3 generations. Society today is not as close to the earth, the soil, water, etc. Artifice has distorted our apprehension of life. Music helps, as do our friends who enjoy music with us.
BTW, I've experienced plenny aloha in and around Honolulu. The right folks help out. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2010 : 08:28:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
Bottom line: it is all about being pono in every action you take, every thought you make, every word you speak. The hardest thing you will ever try to do.
That makes you fit in anywhere in the world -- being pono. Pono is so much more than just "behaving" or being respectful. Way, way more. The hardest is being pono with your own self.
So that those of us who are not Hawaiian have some context for this word, could you define "pono" for us? It appears now in two different threads on this forum, and I am not sure I understand everything that word means.
Thanks.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2010 : 08:35:18 AM
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| Pono - righteous, right. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 03:49:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
Pono is a word that means so much:
http://wehewehe.org/gsdl2.5/cgi-bin/hdict?e=q-0hdict--00-0-0--010---4----den--0-000lpm--1haw-Zz-1---Zz-1-home-pono--00031-0000escapewin-00&a=q&d=D18537
Well, shoots. I have a link to wehewehe.org on my "Favorites" list, and copies of Elbert/Pukui and Mamaka Kaiao on the bookshelf next to me. I don't think I asked my question very succinctly.
I guess what I meant was... What does pono mean to you? How was it taught to you? Do you have a jumping off point for the cultural context of the word besides what we can agree is in the dictionary?
This is an interesting study to me not because of my love of Hawaiian things, but because of my background in linguistics (which I do not often get to exercise because I chose a different career path). There are not merely different definitions of a word, but different kinds of definitions. There is the literal definition - the one we find in the dictionary. This is sometimes called "denotation." Then there is the semantic definition - the emotional definition of a word. This is sometimes called "connotation," and it can be very personal or cultural. The idea behind semantics is that the understanding of a word is different depending on the different experiences of the speaker/writer and the many possible recipients/listeners/readers.
Ebonics is an interesting study. Some think it is a bastardized dialect of English. But as it has its own grammatical structure that is not at all like English, it is actually - like a language we all know and love - a "pidgin." Unlike English, Ebonics has no verb tenses. It is an aspect language. Whereas verb tenses tell us when things happened in time, aspects of verbs tell us when things happened through context or even tone of voice.
A salesman knocks on the door of a tenement and a young boy answers. The salesman asks, "Is your mommy home?" And the young black child says, "She be gone." The salesman asks, "Can you tell me when she'll be home?" And the boy answers angrily, "I told you. She be gone.
In English, "gone" typically means "away." In this case, the young man means his mommy is "dead." This is the essence of connotation.
A dictionary cannot adequately deal with the many cultural implications of a word - no matter how many entries it has. Even if Elbert/Pukui define "pono" as "right," the question becomes What does "right" mean to a Hawaiian?
Even within a culture there is personal disagreement over the meaning of a word. The word "pono" is often wielded in such a way as it means nothing more than "that with which I do not agree." A glimpse into the hula community bears this out. The work of Patrick Makuakane might not be considered to some to be "pono." Who are those "some?" Who are they to define the word "pono?" And if not them, then who?
If I look up "hānai" in the dictionary, it says "adopted" or "to adopt." This means something very different in English than it does in Hawaiian. When I was growing up among Hawaiians on my coast, when people used to ask me how I learned Hawaiian music all the way out here, I used to say very cavalierly, "The local Hawaiians have sort of hānaied me." But local Hawaiians - even those who loved me very much - said, "No, we did not." So I had to understand the cultural implications of what "hānai" means in Hawaiian compared to what "adopt" means in English.
So I guess what I was asking is... What does "pono" mean to you? And if it means "right," what does "right" mean to you?
~ Bill
"There is no reality other than the one we create for ourselves."
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Edited by - hwnmusiclives on 10/08/2010 04:35:11 AM |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
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racial tensions in Hawai'i and music
