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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2008 : 03:29:34 AM
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Change the tuning, you get a different instrument. I have also found that taropatch is good for playing in "C", no need to drop the lowest string to C, just play on the 5th fret, use the low D for the II chord. And you can play F with the low D for a IV6 chord.
Taropatch also works well for imitating zither. I play a couple laendlers in taropatch.
Low to high: DGDGCD imitates "Sawmill" or "Mountain Modal" 5-string banjo tuning. |
Edited by - thumbstruck on 08/20/2008 03:30:42 AM |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 6:30:05 PM
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duke, i agree, at the chord level - why does flatting the third have such a profound effect? sharping the third has a good effect, but not the same.
aloha,
keith
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 08:56:13 AM
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Raising the third makes it a fourth, a subtle rather than powerful interval in Eurocentric music.
The "why" of the impact of these intervals is a _very_ interesting question. From the tiny bit of research I've done, the impact of intervals appears to be culturally defined, except for the octave, which appears to be innate (common across cultures).
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 08:27:47 AM
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In the sawmill tuning Keith referred to above, the fourth eliminates the third interval completely, as no other B string exists in that tuning. Since the third defines the chord as major or minor, this leaves an ambiguous undefined G suspended chord. The sound is a characteristic of some old time Appalachian songs. The harmonies of many of these old songs are built on drones, rather than chords. (Think bagpipes.) On the guitar, you could raise the 5th string to B, and get a sweeter sounding G4 chord, ie, DBDGCD. Having the B in the mix tells your ear that this is a major chord. If, instead of raising the 2nd string to C, you flatted it to Bb, you would have a true Gm. (DGDGBbD).This is another old banjo tuning. For the banjo, these would be written as standard or G tuning;gDGBD,sawmill:gDGCD, and Gminor:gDGBbD.
These ambiguous tunings don't seem to have a strong correlation to Hawaiian music, as most chords are clearly major or minor.In a lot of Scotts and Irish music, the drones are common, although not necesarily predominant. Much Gaelic music uses clear major or minor chords. A lot of this has roots in the old modes that predated the concept of scales.
As I'm reaching the limits of my music theory knowledge, I'll stop before I make errors.
Edit: The lower case g in the banjo tunings indicates the short 5th string.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 08/22/2008 08:30:01 AM |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 5:57:37 PM
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hi paul,
this is really interesting information. i'll have to try some of these alternate tunings. it's always interesting to see what kind of music one can get out of different tunings (some people, of course, can get more than others - i'm on the low end of that spectrum).
but, fran pegged my observation - i was marveling at how the tritone 1 3 5 changes so dramatically when the third is flatted. sharping the third isn't as dramatic. fran observed it's largely cultural, which wouldn't surprise me too much, but it's still surprising to me.
aloha,
keith
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 3:20:16 PM
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I'm not sure how well the guitar tunings above would work for slack key. DBDGCDlacks a low G for G songs, or a low A for D songs. The open GM would be interesting to try. You would be able to fret the second string for the G major.Same for the barred C or D chords. Ry Cooder uses open minor tunings a lot for major key songs, mainly because it simplifies the minor chords. I've really only used these tunings on banjo. But double C,adapted to guitar, sounds like an interesting experiment. So far, the Ctunings I have tried (CGDGAE, CGDGBD, CGDGCD)seem cumbersome. Not enough time behind the wheel, probably.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2008 : 11:39:46 AM
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quote:
but, fran pegged my observation - i was marveling at how the tritone 1 3 5 changes so dramatically when the third is flatted.
Actually, Keith, what you mean to say is "triad" -- and yes, changing from a major to a minor third is rather dramatic. It's sorta what all of western music is about, actually.
A "tritone" is something else again. It's that old flatted fifth (or sharp fourth, same thing.) AKA "The Devil's Interval."
Tritones are extremely powerful little beasts-- it's what gives the dominant seventh chord its strength to resolve up a fourth (Think D7 back to G).
In a dominant 7 chord there's a tritone between the 3rd and the 7th. In D7, that's between F# and C. (Or C and F#, if you prefer. Tritones are nice that way.)
The flat five interval is all over jazz, and it's all over music from Africa (notice a connection here?). In fact, it shows up in the harmonic series-- that's where you start manufacturing notes by selecting the vibrational nodes of a string, say. Think chimes.
The harmonic series is really interesting, cuz it is where all our scales come from, including folk scales with short thirds (Irish & Appalachian fiddle music has a note part way between F and F# in the key of D), long fourths (really common in Northern European dulcimers, actually), weird 7ths and all the rest.
It is also why we mess around with the B string so much in Taropatch tuning-- our ears just do not want to hear that "perfect" third that electronic tuners force on us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_ music
http://www.totallyratted.com/theory/0008_harmonicseries.pdf
Anyway, the b5/#4 got left out of the major scale (as a #4, it's in the wonderful Lydian mode: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C, for example) when European composers started messing around with harmony.
OK, that's way more than you wanted to know-- I was waiting for some huge file to download. You can return to your regular programming now. 
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 09:09:01 AM
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... actually, it led to some pleasant reading via your links and Google. i wasn't able to figure out why you said quote:
It is also why we mess around with the B string so much in Taropatch tuning-- our ears just do not want to hear that "perfect" third that electronic tuners force on us.
but i'll keep looking.
aloha,
keith
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 09:56:39 AM
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Keith (and anyone foolish enuf to read my last post)-
Electronic tuners, like pianos, use equal temperment-- a compromise that alters the frequencies of certain notes so that you can play in all 12 keys--equally out of tune. Think back to Bach.
The third scale degrees in older tuning systems sound sweeter to our ears because they are based on the actual pitches that arrive naturally via the overtone series.
That is why you always have to retune your guitar afteryou use a tuner to "tune" it. And, in Taropatch, the B string is the third-- the one most in need of adjustment.
That is also why you have to adjust certain string when you change keys--particularly noticeable on standard tuned guitars and ukes. The fact that so many people don't do this any more means that we are learning to hear out of tune.
As an aside, that why I always question someone who says they have "perfect pitch." Perfect relative to what? Modern A-440 tuning? Baroque A-430-something tuning? A-442 or 444? (both common in orchestras these days)
Doesn't matter--- in all of these pitch references-- your "perfect pitches" are a modern, man-made artifact. Real pitches are all relative to the key center. So a C# in the key of D and a Db in the key of Ab are not the same pitch... if you are "properly" tuned.
OK, so what's the definition of perfect pitch?
That's when you thow a banjo into the trash from across the room-- and it lands on a hammered dulcimer.
Badda bing.
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:56:21 AM
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aah! equal temperment! i never understood it when friends would say how pre-equal temperment a C# and Db were different notes. now i do...
let's see ... http://www.mark-o.com **click** ... nope, no book on music theory yet.
aloha,
keith
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 10:57:30 AM
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| E Mark good answer. Good thing I donʻt play Ab tuning I would be jammed up with the Db cause Iʻd be trying to play C#..Now explain the concept of E# and B#. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 11:54:51 AM
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Mark, name us a couple songs that use the Lydian mode. I'm not sure what it sounds like.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 12:21:07 PM
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quote:
Mark, name us a couple songs that use the Lydian mode. I'm not sure what it sounds like.
Hey Paul. I don't think there are any lydian mode songs anymore. Might need to ask a monk, it was used in Gregorian chant I'm told.
But you can easily hear what it sounds like: tune your dulcimer to D-A-E, then noodle around with the scale that starts on the 6th fret (don't play 6 1/2).
For every one else--You can try playing a G lydian scale on the hi string in Taropatch--like a G major, but skip the 8th fret and play the 9; so 5-7-9-11-12-14-16-17. Pedal hard on the G, D and B strings to establish where you are. It'll sound weird, you betcha.
Won't hear it in Hawaiian music anyway.
Tho' jazz guys like the lydian mode cuz it has both a #4 and a perfect 5. Add two more notes (b3 and b7) and you have everything you need to amaze your friends and fool yr listener.
And I do mean singular.
BTW: I know a little bit about this stuff cuz I spent years trying to understand the dulcimer. Best tool for learning music theory every invented. Fun to play, too.
quote:
Now explain the concept of E# and B#.
B#, or you will Bb. Me? I B natural, dude.
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Edited by - Mark on 08/26/2008 06:46:05 AM |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2008 : 1:52:58 PM
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Hey Paul. I don't think there are any lydian mode songs anymore.
i'm not going to vouch for it's veracity - not around mark, anyway, but olav torvund lists a few songs in lydian mode, one being that most hawaiian of songs, Aqualung.
see http://www.torvund.net/guitar/index.php?page=mode&ModeID=3
aloha,
keith
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